Not Goth

[Joey Deadcat]

http://www.facebook.com/NotGoth

[Nate Kriepp]

Heh heh!

[pleasurekatzen]

That's pretty funny. Nice find, Joey.

[st_masey]

Marilyn Manson IS goth, he is just terrible. Lots of goth things are terrible. It's just simply better than being a hipster.

[Destroit]

Marilyn Manson IS goth, he is just terrible. Lots of goth things are terrible. It's just simply better than being a hipster.

Reasoning as to why you would consider Marilyn Manson to be goth? I would go so far as to even say glam, rivethead, or cyber-industrial...but GOTH? No way I can fathom that even a little bit :.

He's worn anything gothic or had any type of inkling in any of his music that is deathrockish...so how would you associate him with goth?

Reasoning as to why you would consider Marilyn Manson to be goth? I would go so far as to even say glam, rivethead, or cyber-industrial...but GOTH? No way I can fathom that even a little bit :.

He's worn anything gothic or had any type of inkling in any of his music that is deathrockish...so how would you associate him with goth?

[Joey Deadcat]

I always took Manson for an MTV-groomed metal singer.

S'all about perception, though, innit?

[phee]

I always took Manson for an MTV-groomed metal singer.

S'all about perception, though, innit?

Marylin Manson will be where ever he is lead to be by the flow of things. He will change personas as often as he needs to keep a fan base (notice I don't mean "his" fan base, because I think any fan base would do.) He took the NIN fan base for a while, he has dipped into glam rock, metal, punk.... Pretty much he is the other side of Brittney Spears coin, he is just the rock/goth/metal/spooky side of the coin.

I think MM would appear on Sesame Street if he thought it would give him more popularity....

I respect him as a business entity... but not as an artist.

[DJ Nocker]

Manson is a shock rocker that had a glam phase. He has a couple that arent terrible (and the guitarist from SPECIMEN actually thinks he is talented). He is just responsible for the "mall goth" phase that everyone got mad about.

[st_masey]

The goth's disdain for Marilyn Manson is the rage of Caliban seeing his own face in the glass.

This is by no means a defense of Manson, whom I previously mentioned my distaste. All contemporary aspects of the goth subculture are inherently fake and silly. This is alright if one maintains a self-conscious, tongue-in-cheek attitude about it... which makes it all the more glam. Most first-wave goth music is just phase of glam, not the other way around. Current electronic goth music is just a phase of disco, which is abyssmal.

The goth's disdain for VNV Nation is the rage of Caliban NOT seeing his own face in the glass.

Edited November 29, 2010 by st_masey

[DJ Nocker]

The goth's disdain for Marilyn Manson is the rage of Caliban seeing his own face in the glass.

This is by no means a defense of Manson, whom I previously mentioned my distaste. All contemporary aspects of the goth subculture are inherently fake and silly. This is alright if one maintains a self-conscious, tongue-in-cheek attitude about... which makes it all the more glam. Most first-wave goth music is just phase of glam, not the other way around. Current electronic goth music is just a phase of disco, which is abyssmal.

The goth's disdain for VNV Nation is the rage of Caliban NOT seeing his own face in the glass.

lolwut?

[lordkraven]

well if we are talking about true gothic didnt that get its start during renaissaince era france. i think i misspelledc that but i think you all get the point

[Destroit]

well if we are talking about true gothic didnt that get its start during renaissaince era france. i think i misspelledc that but i think you all get the point

Clearly we're talking modern goth. And no, goths were around before this, we invaded the Roman Empire, remember?

Clearly we're talking modern goth. And no, goths were around before this, we invaded the Roman Empire, remember?

[phee]

Clearly we're talking modern goth. And no, goths were around before this, we invaded the Roman Empire, remember?

That was a fun day.

[Destroit]

lolwut?

^

(What he said lol)

How was first wave goth glam and second wave goth disco? Goth is actually considered post-punk for the most part and branched from the punk era. Industrial is a bit different, but we don't get into that one. Like I said to someone on Facebook recently on the subject (who said that goth is ONLY a marketing term and was never a subgenre ): You can call a tomato a potato all you want but in the end, clearly it is not.

I may be wrong as I study mostly industrial history, not goth rock, but I do know a thing or two about the subject. Can we get some clarification from someone more qualified? Deadcat, I'm eyeballing you.

^

(What he said lol)

How was first wave goth glam and second wave goth disco? Goth is actually considered post-punk for the most part and branched from the punk era. Industrial is a bit different, but we don't get into that one. Like I said to someone on Facebook recently on the subject (who said that goth is ONLY a marketing term and was never a subgenre ): You can call a tomato a potato all you want but in the end, clearly it is not.

I may be wrong as I study mostly industrial history, not goth rock, but I do know a thing or two about the subject. Can we get some clarification from someone more qualified? Deadcat, I'm eyeballing you.

[Destroit]

That was a fun day.

Indeed. And so MANFAST was created after to commemorate our victory all those years ago.

Indeed. And so MANFAST was created after to commemorate our victory all those years ago.

[Destroit]

The goth's disdain for Marilyn Manson is the rage of Caliban seeing his own face in the glass.

This is by no means a defense of Manson, whom I previously mentioned my distaste. All contemporary aspects of the goth subculture are inherently fake and silly. This is alright if one maintains a self-conscious, tongue-in-cheek attitude about it... which makes it all the more glam. Most first-wave goth music is just phase of glam, not the other way around. Current electronic goth music is just a phase of disco, which is abyssmal.

The goth's disdain for VNV Nation is the rage of Caliban NOT seeing his own face in the glass.

Eh...goth's disdain for MM comes from the fact that he's a douchebag who is trying to manipulate a subgenre to his will not for artistic merit but for popularity, shock, money, etc. I still say he isn't goth. He does not perform goth rock. He does not wear ANY gothic attire. I think you might be having issues with subtleties here, that's like saying all preppy people are also thugs/wiggers because they both wear color. It's incorrect no matter how you cut it.

You can find overt similarities when you compare ANYTHING to do with humanity, because we're ALL human. It's the subtle context that creates the differences, and so no Marilyn Manson is not goth and will most likely never be goth. Ignorant preppy people or preppy kids trying to Hot-Topic-Rebel call him "goth" because, well, they're ignorant and are unable to pick up on minute differences.

"Sticking feathers in your ass does not make you a chicken."

Eh...goth's disdain for MM comes from the fact that he's a douchebag who is trying to manipulate a subgenre to his will not for artistic merit but for popularity, shock, money, etc. I still say he isn't goth. He does not perform goth rock. He does not wear ANY gothic attire. I think you might be having issues with subtleties here, that's like saying all preppy people are also thugs/wiggers because they both wear color. It's incorrect no matter how you cut it.

You can find overt similarities when you compare ANYTHING to do with humanity, because we're ALL human. It's the subtle context that creates the differences, and so no Marilyn Manson is not goth and will most likely never be goth. Ignorant preppy people or preppy kids trying to Hot-Topic-Rebel call him "goth" because, well, they're ignorant and are unable to pick up on minute differences.

"Sticking feathers in your ass does not make you a chicken."

Edited December 1, 2010 by Chernobyl

[st_masey]

Eh...goth's disdain for MM comes from the fact that he's a douchebag who is trying to manipulate a subgenre to his will not for artistic merit but for popularity, shock, money, etc.

Oh, he is a douchebag. I think his unabashed desire for popularity, shock and his overall shallowness makes most goths feel guilty. "Oh my god, is that how others see me?", or, "Is that what I really am?" So he becomes a scapegoat for all the immaturity and silliness of the goth subculture. They place all their anxieties concerning their own personal issues with originality, substance and appearance onto him because he is first of all, popular, second of all, not a particularly authentic goth.

Truly, I don't see what "real" goths do that Marilyn Manson and mallgoths don't. If this were simply a matter of artistic taste, that would be one thing. Sure, he makes sucky music. Can one really say that Cruxshadows are any better? And even if one does like the good goth music, isn't the antagonism against Marilyn Manson still more of a way to justify one's identity to oneself?

[st_masey]

^

(What he said lol)

How was first wave goth glam and second wave goth disco? Goth is actually considered post-punk for the most part and branched from the punk era.

Post-punk can be a tricky genre because things as diverse as second-wave ska, no-wave, synthpop, and industrial can all fall under the label. Post-punk doesn't necessarily mean that the artists be merely a form of punk, it stipulates only that these are genres that came after punk fundamentally changed the way rock music was made in the early to mid-seventies. Therefore, non-punk bands can be used to claim an influence over post-punk ones. The artists themselves can testify to this. Bauhaus, largely influenced by David Bowie, arguably the very early Adam and the Ants (Glam). Siouxsie and the Banshees, have stated several times that they were influenced by Roxy Music (Glam). There's even a hint of Bow Wow Wow in Southern Death Cult. Really though, it all comes back to the Velvet Underground and Can, which are unclassifiable. The only major first wave goth act that I can think of that borrowed more from punk than from glam would be Killing Joke.

Edited December 1, 2010 by st_masey

[victoriavengeance (1)]

rofl, my boyfriend and I trolled hardcore on the marilyn manson photo. it's like a digital playground for making fun of people, i love ittt

[kat (1)]

Marylin Manson will be where ever he is lead to be by the flow of things. He will change personas as often as he needs to keep a fan base (notice I don't mean "his" fan base, because I think any fan base would do.) He took the NIN fan base for a while, he has dipped into glam rock, metal, punk.... Pretty much he is the other side of Brittney Spears coin, he is just the rock/goth/metal/spooky side of the coin.

I think MM would appear on Sesame Street if he thought it would give him more popularity....

I respect him as a business entity... but not as an artist.

(note the horse has nothing to do with this comment, my daughter thought it was cool)

Anyway, So I'm just casually reading through the posts here and than I come to this one here, I laugh out loud, my daughter and her friend hear me, they want to know what the random laughter was about so I tell them what you said about Manson, they begin to laugh hysterically and further, they agree with your comment too.

So, +3 here, big LOL's, a horse, and major

[DorianDawes]

I've never considered Marilyn Manson goth, nor has he ever claimed to be. I do enjoy his music, but more so, I enjoy a lot of the things he has to say. I think his constant reinvention is more the reason artists such as David Bowie went through many likenesses, as so do many artists that span a lengthy career. Imagery and music change along with the artist that creates it.

While I think Manson's best days are probably behind him, I respect his message of the empowerment of the individual, and the call to not be a victim, but instead to rise above your circumstances. Isn't this something we can all relate to?

I also feel he's unjustly blamed for the Mall Goth era. Or are we forgetting such awful bands as Slipknot, ICP, HIM, Cradle of Filth, and My Chemical Romance? Manson at least never claimed the label of Gothic, these bands DID.

Regardless: That facebook page is fucking hilarious.

[DorianDawes]

Gif appropriate.