Thanks Obama

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

I love how some americans who aren't familiar with canadian health care are STILL arguing Siren, an actual canadian who most obviously KNOWS how her health care works.

Brainwashed conservative/republicans = FAI... actually, my signature just sums it all up in my favourite 4 letter word

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

I also want to call somebody else out here, Saint Germain!!! Front and center on the stage!! I've heard through several sources that indicate the German health care system blows our health care (and canada's i think) to pure shame.

I however, cannot find the actual recources for when i transfered google's search results to the .de base.. everything came up in german.. mind throwing in your 2 cents if you're reading this?

[creatureofthenyte]

By the arguments made in this thread by the more conservative folks.... I would suggest that if your name is not appearing in Red (in other words you have not made a donation to DGN) Or you are not at least a member of the street team.... You have no right to post on DGN, because those of us who have donated + (and mainly) Troy, are the ones who pay to have the board on the internet, and we don't want you to be hypocritical of your points on healthcare by us donation making, and contributing folk giving you DGN bandwidth hand-outs that you have not earned.

So, what are you are saying?

Are you implying I have no right to post on here because I don't donate, Or are you proving Phenom's point with this comment ?

[Slogo]

So, what are you are saying?

Are you implying I have no right to post on here because I don't donate, Or are you proving Phenom's point with this comment ?

He's saying that those who pay for the site, pay for all of us to use it. He's drawing an analogy to the healthcare debate

[creatureofthenyte]

He's saying that those who pay for the site, pay for all of us to use it. He's drawing an analogy to the healthcare debate

That's not what I got from that comment. It sounded exactly like it's worded.

[Jinx]

Notice Federal Tax Revenues GOING UP after Bush's tax cuts. Economics 202.

Umm part of Economics 202 I guess you missed (maybe you were sick that day)is the the rate of SPENDING which increased at a much higher rate than our revenue stream. ala our huge deficit

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

That's not what I got from that comment. It sounded exactly like it's worded.

I actually got his point, why are you the only one that's not getting it? I mean seriously... you have to be trolling, you already proven you're too smart to have your head buried this far in the mud now...

[kat (1)]

I actually got his point, why are you the only one that's not getting it? I mean seriously... you have to be trolling, you already proven you're too smart to have your head buried this far in the mud now...

Actually,I also got the same message he did. It was pretty clearly stated.

Edited December 6, 2010 by kat

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Umm part of Economics 202 I guess you missed (maybe you were sick that day)is the the rate of SPENDING which increased at a much higher rate than our revenue stream. ala our huge deficit

We were talking about wether or not the Bush tax cuts created more revenue. Thank you for bringing up Spending. It's what the Tea Party wants cut. It's the real problem.

So, now that we are talking about the root of the problem we are all in... we have, as a people, a daunting task. We have to convince Congress to renew the Tax cuts, as they are creating more revenue than higher tax rates would and then cut spending so we can pay down our debt.

I can't thank you enough for making my point for me.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Gaf The Horse With Tears

[phee]

I think you see my point.... (I would not advocate actually not allowing non contributers to not post.... but my point being that if a person who is against the type of healthcare being expressed would want to still be allowed to post, they would have to admit that other people are paying for services that they are using for free)

The point being.... if conservatives were to stand by their convictions, they would not post if they had not contributed.

[killyosaur]

1. There is no opting out of Obamacare. You are either in it or paying fines... possibly doing time in prison.

2. If Obamacare is so perfect... Why is it bad to call it Obamacare?

3. Again, if it's so perfect, why has Obama given out 111 waivers... Most of which went to the Unions and Companys that backed this bill in the first place.

4. The Bush tax cuts, like the tax cuts before it, raised revenue. Get over Economics 101 and Kensington economics. Economics 201 has started... it's where you learn what works and what does not.

I do believe you meant Keynsian Economics. FYI.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I do believe you meant Keynsian Economics. FYI.

Yep. Thanks... sometimes my hands type whatever they feel like.

[Saint Germain]

I also want to call somebody else out here, Saint Germain!!! Front and center on the stage!! I've heard through several sources that indicate the German health care system blows our health care (and canada's i think) to pure shame.

I however, cannot find the actual recources for when i transfered google's search results to the .de base.. everything came up in german.. mind throwing in your 2 cents if you're reading this?

as requested a brief summary of German health care:

Germany has Europe's oldest universal health care system. Currently 85% of the population is covered by a basic health insurance plan provided by statute, which provides a standard level of coverage. The remainder opt for private health insurance, which frequently offers additional benefits.

There are two separate systems of health insurance': public health insurance (Gesetzliche Krankenversicherung) and private insurance (Private Krankenversicherung). Both systems struggle with the increasing cost of medical treatment and the changing demography. About 87.5% of the persons with health insurance are members of the public system, while 12.5% are covered by private insurance.

Public insurance

All salaried employees must have a public health insurance. Only public officers, self-employed people and employees with a large income above c. €50,000 (adjusted yearly) may join the private system.

In the Public system the premium

- is set by the Federal Ministry of Health based on a fixed set of covered services as described in the German Social Law (Sozialgesetzbuch - SGB), which limits those services to "economically viable, sufficient, necessary and meaningful services"

- is not dependent on an individual's health condition, but a percentage of salaried income (typically 10-15%, depending on the public health insurance company one is in, where half of that is paid by the employer)

includes family members of any family members, or "registered member" ( Familienversicherung - i.e. husband/wife and children are free)

- is a "pay as you go" system - there is no saving for an individual's higher health costs with rising age or existing conditions.

With an aging population, there is an intrinsic risk that, in the long run, the burden to be carried by the young and working generations for the higher share of elderly will run the public system into a huge deficit or result in high premiums.

Private insurance

In the Private system the premium

* is based on an individual agreement between the insurance company and the individual defining the set of covered services and the percentage of coverage

* depends on the amount of services chosen and the individual risk and entrance age into the private system

* is used to build up savings for the rising health costs at higher age (required by law)

A person that opts out of the public health insurance system and gets private health insurance can not go back later to the public system, even if income drops below the level required for private selection. Since private health insurance is usually more expensive than public health insurance one will be required to pay the higher premiums with less income.

The private system is said to be more stable to a changing demography, due to the savings accumulated over time. However with life expectancy rising the premium will also eventually rise for individuals.

In my subjective opinion works the system well. You get treatment directly and the additional costs for medication are minor.

Nearly every treatment is covered even gender reassignment surgery and abortion.

Maybe the system could get instable in a few years because of changing demography.

so far

Edited December 6, 2010 by Saint Germain

[phee]

Thanks sir!

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

Actually,I also got the same message he did. It was pretty clearly stated.

Now if you would so kindly remove your head from the mud, you would have seen phee was making an ANALOGY to back his statements up, NOT TO BULLY PEOPLE INTO PAYING. But to say, the way Night wants things done, then in the same principal, he would also want to see DGN for paying members only.

How come the only ones who can't seem to get Phee's point are the ones against the side of the fence he's on? Oh yeah, i forgot, you are taking the republican way and trying to twist shit up in dogma becaus to BE RIGHT is surely more importan than WHAT'S RIGHT.... right?

[kat (1)]

Now if you would so kindly remove your head from the mud, you would have seen phee was making an ANALOGY to back his statements up, NOT TO BULLY PEOPLE INTO PAYING. But to say, the way Night wants things done, then in the same principal, he would also want to see DGN for paying members only.

How come the only ones who can't seem to get Phee's point are the ones against the side of the fence he's on? Oh yeah, i forgot, you are taking the republican way and trying to twist shit up in dogma becaus to BE RIGHT is surely more importan than WHAT'S RIGHT.... right?

I will remove my head from the "mud" when you so kindly stop rehashing everyone else's post's. Deal?

So, what is right, in your opinion?

Edited December 7, 2010 by kat

[phee]

*Not directed at anyone in particular*

KEEP IT CIVIL

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Now if you would so kindly remove your head from the mud, you would have seen phee was making an ANALOGY to back his statements up, NOT TO BULLY PEOPLE INTO PAYING. But to say, the way Night wants things done, then in the same principal, he would also want to see DGN for paying members only.

How come the only ones who can't seem to get Phee's point are the ones against the side of the fence he's on? Oh yeah, i forgot, you are taking the republican way and trying to twist shit up in dogma becaus to BE RIGHT is surely more importan than WHAT'S RIGHT.... right?

Your insults are not helping your point. Also, as I got what phee was saying, you are as usual, wrong.

[victoriavengeance (1)]

I WILL TURN THIS CAR AROUND, YOU GUYS.

*clears throat*

Ahem.

Anyways.

I really don't agree with the public healthcare covering Abortion. That's still in the bill, right? I can't remember if it was or not, too lazy to google, asking a question, expecting constant attacks afterwards.

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

I will remove my head from the "mud" when you so kindly stop rehashing everyone else's post's. Deal?

So, what is right, in your opinion?

rehashing? I don't understand why you would say that since you are doing the same and I really do not like it when someone tries to take someone else's statement and twist it into a different meaning to try to get the upperhand the wrong way.

Besides, this is a debate about health care and obama's infuence. Phee made an analogy, that much is plainly obvious, which was a pretty easy analogy to figure out. Easy enough to where anyone who takes it otherwise, has their head in the mud. Take it as you will if the shoe fits, but I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade.

As for me, I don't know what is right, but I do know what the right path is to find out, and arguing over who's right and who's wrong isn't the right path but rather figure it out together. Obamacare isn't perfect, republicans had a hand in that (to protect the insurance companies from making less profits than they currently are) to make it the atrocity it is right now.

From someone who's still on the fence of either side, I have noticed a hypocritical double standard in these forums.

Republican siding people tend to never acknowledge the immaturity and willfully poor decisions made by their political party but are quick to demonize the democrats, such as saying "THEY'RE INTENTIONALLY DESTROYING AMERICA!!! ZOMG!!!"

Yes.. I've read statements like that even here on DGN, wich honestly, statements like that are ludicrous, and are void of any rational and intelligent thinking.

Yet on the flip side, I don't see much people on this site who lean democraticly doing the same thing, rather they admit to the faults of their favoured party but at the same token, rationally argue that they are on the side of lesser evil.

I see considerable more willful ignorance from republican supporters than I do democratic supporters on this site, and in general out in the real world.

Also, those who claim such outrageous acts also claim to be in the knowing, yet never link their sources on here, yet many on the democratic side, such as jynx, have.

A funny thing about scholars that I have read once, having all that knowledge, yet refuse to share it, to create, and depend on the assumption that they are never wrong, even in case they might actually be wrong.

It's just left to my conclusion that most claims by republicans on this site are dead wrong, based on the fact that they haven't posted any of their sources of this "knowledge" they have, and the fact i couldn't find anything even remotely close to their claims when searching news sources and archives myself.

[Slogo]

In defense of those who didn't get the analogy, sarcasm doesn't translate well to the interwebz

[kat (1)]

rehashing? I don't understand why you would say that since you are doing the same and I really do not like it when someone tries to take someone else's statement and twist it into a different meaning to try to get the upperhand the wrong way.

Besides, this is a debate about health care and obama's infuence. Phee made an analogy, that much is plainly obvious, which was a pretty easy analogy to figure out. Easy enough to where anyone who takes it otherwise, has their head in the mud. Take it as you will if the shoe fits, but I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade.

As for me, I don't know what is right, but I do know what the right path is to find out, and arguing over who's right and who's wrong isn't the right path but rather figure it out together. Obamacare isn't perfect, republicans had a hand in that (to protect the insurance companies from making less profits than they currently are) to make it the atrocity it is right now.

From someone who's still on the fence of either side, I have noticed a hypocritical double standard in these forums.

Republican siding people tend to never acknowledge the immaturity and willfully poor decisions made by their political party but are quick to demonize the democrats, such as saying "THEY'RE INTENTIONALLY DESTROYING AMERICA!!! ZOMG!!!"

Yes.. I've read statements like that even here on DGN, wich honestly, statements like that are ludicrous, and are void of any rational and intelligent thinking.

Yet on the flip side, I don't see much people on this site who lean democraticly doing the same thing, rather they admit to the faults of their favoured party but at the same token, rationally argue that they are on the side of lesser evil.

I see considerable more willful ignorance from republican supporters than I do democratic supporters on this site, and in general out in the real world.

Also, those who claim such outrageous acts also claim to be in the knowing, yet never link their sources on here, yet many on the democratic side, such as jynx, have.

A funny thing about scholars that I have read once, having all that knowledge, yet refuse to share it, to create, and depend on the assumption that they are never wrong, even in case they might actually be wrong.

It's just left to my conclusion that most claims by republicans on this site are dead wrong, based on the fact that they haven't posted any of their sources of this "knowledge" they have, and the fact i couldn't find anything even remotely close to their claims when searching news sources and archives myself.

Okay, one of the biggest things I learned in debate class, is, to be able to view issues on the pro side and the con side, an individual involved in a debate needs to be able to see things from both perspectives, understand the pro's and con's of the ISSUE in question, pick which side they feel they are more strongly able to support, and then make a strong, argument for the cause. I will say that, in a debate, those parties debating are to be focused on the issue at hand, not the individual on the opposing end. In the short, what I am saying is a good debate candidate does not have to resort to insulting their debate partner, that is probably why the damn political system is screwed up in the first place, because, rather than focus on the issues at hand, politicians seem to be more focused on their opposing candidates personal life, rather then the issues affecting the people they are trying to represent. Telling someone they are misguided or to get their head out of the mud is irrelevant to the issue you are trying to support, and making statements like that could discredit your argument completely. I want to hear a good debate, if I wanted to see people get bashed I would watch Jerry Springer.

Now, as far as me rehashing something, what I did was not rehash, I simply stated that Creature was not the only person who saw the post in question and took it for face value, I think that Victoriavengance made a comment stating something to the effect of her grasping the comment, and that is actually when Phee elaborated on what he really meant, so by Phee elaborating, Perhaps, he even recognized that the comment needed to be stated more clearly in order for other's to see what he was trying to prove, he had a strong point and he wanted to make sure it was recognized as an analogy. As Slogo said, this is the internet, vocal inflection, is not translated via text so it can be difficult to decipher a tone of a comment, hence why we have emoticon's and LOL, etc...., because those are the only tools we have to show emotion in our text. Here's an analogy not related to politics but it may help portray what I mean, say you are in love with your significant other, but you have never told that person you love them, you decide you need to express that to them for the first time. Do you A. Send them an email telling them you are in love with them or do you B. Tell them in person? If you want them to see your tonal inflection and your emotion behind what you say, you are going to say it in person because they will better grasp the meaning of that, if you say it via email or text, it is probably not gonna be as strong or meaningful. What I am trying to say is, you don't have to attack people personally just because they interpret text for face value. No harm, no foul in what he posted, he did not attack anyone's character or insult them. But, you, well you come in and start saying what you say, which, pretty much was irrelevant to the issue at hand. Creature probably said what he said because he wanted to gather the facts of what was stated in order for him and anyone else who may have taken it for face value, well all Creature did was clear something up or fact-finding if you will.

Now, the last issue I want to bring up is, I come in the politics thread because I love to watch a healthy debate, I have never gotten involved in the debate piece because I like to know all the fact's before siding on something, so, because I simply said that "I also took the comment the same way he did", it appears to me that this led you to believe that I am now declaring myself a republican. I personally hate the government, we live in an unfair, unjust society, the economic system is designed to put a cap on the percentage of people who can reach the top of the social-economic ladder,(this information is courtesy of an economics class I took, circa 1997) regardless of who is in charge of our country. In conclusion, we are all screwed, republican, democrats, anarchists, etc.......

Edited December 7, 2010 by kat

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

rehashing? I don't understand why you would say that since you are doing the same and I really do not like it when someone tries to take someone else's statement and twist it into a different meaning to try to get the upperhand the wrong way.

Besides, this is a debate about health care and obama's infuence. Phee made an analogy, that much is plainly obvious, which was a pretty easy analogy to figure out. Easy enough to where anyone who takes it otherwise, has their head in the mud. Take it as you will if the shoe fits, but I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade.

As for me, I don't know what is right, but I do know what the right path is to find out, and arguing over who's right and who's wrong isn't the right path but rather figure it out together. Obamacare isn't perfect, republicans had a hand in that (to protect the insurance companies from making less profits than they currently are) to make it the atrocity it is right now.

From someone who's still on the fence of either side, I have noticed a hypocritical double standard in these forums.

Republican siding people tend to never acknowledge the immaturity and willfully poor decisions made by their political party but are quick to demonize the democrats, such as saying "THEY'RE INTENTIONALLY DESTROYING AMERICA!!! ZOMG!!!"

Yes.. I've read statements like that even here on DGN, wich honestly, statements like that are ludicrous, and are void of any rational and intelligent thinking.

Yet on the flip side, I don't see much people on this site who lean democraticly doing the same thing, rather they admit to the faults of their favoured party but at the same token, rationally argue that they are on the side of lesser evil.

I see considerable more willful ignorance from republican supporters than I do democratic supporters on this site, and in general out in the real world.

Also, those who claim such outrageous acts also claim to be in the knowing, yet never link their sources on here, yet many on the democratic side, such as jynx, have.

A funny thing about scholars that I have read once, having all that knowledge, yet refuse to share it, to create, and depend on the assumption that they are never wrong, even in case they might actually be wrong.

It's just left to my conclusion that most claims by republicans on this site are dead wrong, based on the fact that they haven't posted any of their sources of this "knowledge" they have, and the fact i couldn't find anything even remotely close to their claims when searching news sources and archives myself.

Wow. Have you read the foaming at the mouth anti-Bush threads from a few years ago?

BTW, the is a difference between not posting links to sources and you not bothing to click the links.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I WILL TURN THIS CAR AROUND, YOU GUYS.

*clears throat*

Ahem.

Anyways.

I really don't agree with the public healthcare covering Abortion. That's still in the bill, right? I can't remember if it was or not, too lazy to google, asking a question, expecting constant attacks afterwards.

Yes, publicaly funded abortions are still in Obamacare. So are the death panels... not by that name, but they are there none the less. "Cost/Benefit Boards"...

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2010/04/02/krugman-admits-rationing-death-panels-from-obamacare/

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/health-care/4065-obamacare-abortion-funding-has-begun

[Rev.Reverence]

You just Don't get it.

If Obamacare gets implemented, that will most likely put a lot of insurance companies OUT of business.

Which means Hundreds of Thousands of more JOBS LOST.

Which means our Economy will fall even Further into the CRAPPER !

That's okay, after that happens, I'll post a thread titled: "We told you so !"

HEY...don't you see..the insurance companies, are EVIL...they only want money, not to help...that is one corporate sector, I'ld LIKE to see die...

On what?

Not the national debt, "your" Left leaning people Quadrupled that(in less then 2 years even).

Not the national Unemployment rate, "your" Left leaning people Doubled that(in less then 2 years even)

Not our gigantic debt to China, "your" Left leaning people dreamed up that bright idea.

If Obamacare goes through, the most expensive "We told you so" our nation will Ever see, will happen.

WOW...what a nice way to spin those one sided...ever hear the words, "TAKES TWO TO TANGO!"?

The demo-reps, are tearing this fucking country apart!

What a bunch of fucking assholes....