Thanks Obama

[*Siren*]

Nice bit of spin there...

You seem to have left out key words... like...

"more efficient ways to deliver health care" so, the health care provided is not done efficiently...

"put more of public tax dollars into existing system" so, it's under funded...

"pay for thier own" so, they want another option...

Actually, you seem to have skipped over the part about "rising costs of health care" which is what the poll was about. How do we compensate for increased costs? Provincial Governments are looking for a solution before it becomes a problem. Saying that costs are increasing means that health care is unavailable or underfunded is like stating that "gas prices are going up" means that "I'm out of gas." These things are not the same. If you know that the cost of something is going up, you look at your budget and figure out how to compensate. Costs will also increase regardless of where your insurance comes from.

You also omitted the part where only 11% wanted "more opportunities for Canadians to pay for health services out of their own pockets." Last time I checked 11% was a very small minority. This also does not translate to "get rid of OHIP." This can mean that we should stop funding non-essential services or implement a copay for certain things. Each province chooses what to cover under their health plans. Some provinces will cover things like chiropractic adjustments and others do not. Abortions are covered, at least in Ontario. There are people that disagree with this.

I have a question for all the people that have never lived in Canada and think that they know so much about how "horrible" our health care must be here since some guy on CNN told them so. If our health care is so bad and yours is so much better, then why is our average life excpectancy 3 years higher than yours and our infant mortality rate is lower than the U.S.?

[phee]

Siren + smart

[Scar My Machine]

Actually, you seem to have skipped over the part about "rising costs of health care" which is what the poll was about. How do we compensate for increased costs? Provincial Governments are looking for a solution before it becomes a problem. Saying that costs are increasing means that health care is unavailable or underfunded is like stating that "gas prices are going up" means that "I'm out of gas." These things are not the same. If you know that the cost of something is going up, you look at your budget and figure out how to compensate. Costs will also increase regardless of where your insurance comes from.

You also omitted the part where only 11% wanted "more opportunities for Canadians to pay for health services out of their own pockets." Last time I checked 11% was a very small minority. This also does not translate to "get rid of OHIP." This can mean that we should stop funding non-essential services or implement a copay for certain things. Each province chooses what to cover under their health plans. Some provinces will cover things like chiropractic adjustments and others do not. Abortions are covered, at least in Ontario. There are people that disagree with this.

I have a question for all the people that have never lived in Canada and think that they know so much about how "horrible" our health care must be here since some guy on CNN told them so. If our health care is so bad and yours is so much better, then why is our average life excpectancy 3 years higher than yours and our infant mortality rate is lower than the U.S.?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Actually, you seem to have skipped over the part about "rising costs of health care" which is what the poll was about. How do we compensate for increased costs? Provincial Governments are looking for a solution before it becomes a problem. Saying that costs are increasing means that health care is unavailable or underfunded is like stating that "gas prices are going up" means that "I'm out of gas." These things are not the same. If you know that the cost of something is going up, you look at your budget and figure out how to compensate. Costs will also increase regardless of where your insurance comes from.

You also omitted the part where only 11% wanted "more opportunities for Canadians to pay for health services out of their own pockets." Last time I checked 11% was a very small minority. This also does not translate to "get rid of OHIP." This can mean that we should stop funding non-essential services or implement a copay for certain things. Each province chooses what to cover under their health plans. Some provinces will cover things like chiropractic adjustments and others do not. Abortions are covered, at least in Ontario. There are people that disagree with this.

I have a question for all the people that have never lived in Canada and think that they know so much about how "horrible" our health care must be here since some guy on CNN told them so. If our health care is so bad and yours is so much better, then why is our average life excpectancy 3 years higher than yours and our infant mortality rate is lower than the U.S.?

Didn't skip that a bit. "Focusing on finding more efficient ways to deliver health care without putting any more tax dollars into the system." That is an admission that inefficient health care is being provided. If, they skip out on redundent tests, specialists and referal after referal to name a few problems with every medical system... the patient will get "cured"/treated quickly and timely... therefore costing less. The rising cost will thus be offset. Being more efficient means cutting waste and redundency. "efficient ways to deliver health care".

BTW: 11% is a small percent of the population. It's still 1% higher than the gay population accounts for. Are you ready to take thier voice away too?

[phee]

Didn't skip that a bit. "Focusing on finding more efficient ways to deliver health care without putting any more tax dollars into the system." That is an admission that inefficient health care is being provided. If, they skip out on redundent tests, specialists and referal after referal to name a few problems with every medical system... the patient will get "cured"/treated quickly and timely... therefore costing less. The rising cost will thus be offset. Being more efficient means cutting waste and redundency. "efficient ways to deliver health care".

BTW: 11% is a small percent of the population. It's still 1% higher than the gay population accounts for. Are you ready to take thier voice away too?

Where did she say that she wanted to take away someones voice? I must have missed that.... I do recall her saying that 11% was a minority.... but I did not hear anything about voice removal.

[*Siren*]

BTW: 11% is a small percent of the population. It's still 1% higher than the gay population accounts for. Are you ready to take thier voice away too?

So now I'm a gay basher because I like my health care? Seriously?

I also noticed that you won't touch my question with a fifty foot pole. Why? Because it proves that our health care works, so you prefer to ignore it.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Where did she say that she wanted to take away someones voice? I must have missed that.... I do recall her saying that 11% was a minority.... but I did not hear anything about voice removal.

She dismissed that group. She acknowledges their existence, but what they want seems, from what she has said, as inconsequential. I used gay's because it happens to e a smaller group of people who voices we listen to. Her 'It's only 11% of the population' blow off is offensive to those that beleive minority voices count.

I ignored your question becuase it must be aimed at someone else. I never said I liked the US Health Care system. I said the Canadian and British models are flawed. Severly.

I will note, that Canada has a bigger debt problem than the US. One of the dirty secrets that isn't so secret that no one is talking about.

Am I the only one who see's the Western economys crashing as people riot in the streets because they dont want to give up a red cent of their entitlements? How long do you really think you can rob Peter to pay Paul?

[phee]

She dismissed that group. She acknowledges their existence, but what they want seems, from what she has said, as inconsequential. I used gay's because it happens to e a smaller group of people who voices we listen to. Her 'It's only 11% of the population' blow off is offensive to those that beleive minority voices count.

I don't think that stating that 11% is a minority is dismissing that group.... I think she is stating that there are more people in the other group, which makes them a majority.... Is this not the very nature of voting? I still don't see voice removal.

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

I just don't think Gaf is going to get the point. The point being, don't knock Canada's health when they're obviously running their shit better than us.

[phee]

I just don't think Gaf is going to get the point. The point being, don't knock Canada's health when they're obviously running their shit better than us.

Indeed

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I get what you are all saying completly.

Canada's health care system is better than the US's.

Pointing out any flaws or places where it needs improvement is not allowed.

almost forgot...

The USA sucks and does nothing right.

Obama is better than Jesus.

Is that about it?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mfMG66LtVU

[phee]

I get what you are all saying completly.

Canada's health care system is better than the US's.

Pointing out any flaws or places where it needs improvement is not allowed.

Yes it is better than the U.S.'s and as you read, no one is claiming Canada has a perfect one.... Just better than the U.S.

almost forgot...

The USA sucks and does nothing right.

Obama is better than Jesus.

Is that about it?

The U.S. sucks at the moment in a lot of ways.... healthcare is one of the ways that it does. It is also good in a lot of ways.

And as far as the comment about Obama being better than Jesus.... well, if you want to drag it down to the sophomoric level of that kind of comparison just because you are losing the argument.... is there really any point in talking to you about it? Besides, according to the mythology Jesus got crucified, so maybe his decision making skills were not all that great.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

People ignoring and spinning what I say is not loosing an arguement. By the rules of debate I learned, I am winning. I am actually responding directly to the topic at hand and providing data to back up what I say.

I actually brought it down to grade school... hence the School House Rock.

[phee]

People ignoring and spinning what I say is not loosing an arguement. By the rules of debate I learned, I am winning. I am actually responding directly to the topic at hand and providing data to back up what I say.

I actually brought it down to grade school... hence the School House Rock.

Her stating that 11% is a minority.... then you equating that fact as removing voices and gay bashing.... that is spinning.

[Rev.Reverence]

The U.S. sucks at the moment in a lot of ways.... healthcare is one of the ways that it does. It is also good in a lot of ways.

TRUTH!~

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Her stating that 11% is a minority.... then you equating that fact as removing voices and gay bashing.... that is spinning.

more spin. I never used the words"gay bashing". never hinted at it.

She discounted 11% of the population as small and not large enough to cater too... I pointed out that there are other groups that are even smaller that we do listen to and make allowences for.

You and her spin it into me calling her a gay basher.

Try defeating my logic and facts rather than trying to discount me. I have posted links and charts... try directly addressing some of that.

Let me state my postition again a bit more clearly.... then you can try to refute it rather than discredit me...

THe US Healthcare overhaul will bankrupt our country without actually giving better healthcare to the people...

as example I give you the Canadian and British Healthcare systems... that are bankrupting thier countries without giving a level of care thats much better than what the US has.

At least 11% of Canadians want another choice when it comes to healthcare.

I don;t think they should be ignored anymore than I think gays should be ignored when it comes to thier Rights to marry.

[phee]

more spin. I never used the words"gay bashing". never hinted at it.

She discounted 11% of the population as small and not large enough to cater too... I pointed out that there are other groups that are even smaller that we do listen to and make allowences for.

I don't see anywhere she said that....

Those are your words

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I don't see anywhere she said that....

Those are your words

So, your are going to stick with trying to discredit me as a person rather than refute anything I say... fine.

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

I get what you are all saying completly.

Canada's health care system is better than the US's.

Pointing out any flaws or places where it needs improvement is not allowed.

almost forgot...

The USA sucks and does nothing right.

Obama is better than Jesus.

Is that about it?

heh, honestly man, I like your smart ass sense of humor... usa sucking ass and doing nothing right... i'll agree with you there..

obama better than jesus? meh... technically I'll have to agree since, if jesus did exist, he's obviously dead now, and a dead person just lays there and does nothing.. anyone can be better than a dead person But if that's the gist you got off me or most others is that we love obama like the 2nd cumming of crist then you're mistaken... on my part at least, can't really speak for others other than the gist that they aren't really happy with obama either, at least that's the impression I've gotten. My big gripe about it? I'm tired of all the one sided thoughts. People who didn't make a peep or complaint about bush are all of a sudden forming groups and self proclaiming them a political town watch who are thwarting every evil deed obama does. And same with the other side, throwing the same temper tantrum "republicans" are throwing now, when bush was in office, but not making a peep about Obama. Now I know I defended Obama, I do believe he has good intentions, but rather not the best judgement, and neither does his administration (sorta the same as the bush administration, but at least he's not a complete moron that listens to obvious war profiteers only, yes i know he listens to them, but he tries to listen to others as well), also, I have to give him some handicap bonus points for walking into a mess to begin with, that the bush administration left behind.

There were alot more people that wanted to run for presidency in the begining of this last election but.. didn't make the popularity cut, however were very rational in their thinking, but sadly didn't have the charisma to pull it into the top 2 finals slots. At the end result, I don't think we had a fair election to begin with since, well, IMO, neither McCain nor Obama really had my confidence.. In this situation I ALMOST didn't vote.. and picked who I thought was the lesser of 2 evils.

I will go on record the final deciding factor was Sarah Palin.. just In my humble opinion, anyone to pick her as VP Is missing some critical screws upstairs that I feel are required to run a country, or at least be the figure head.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

heh, honestly man, I like your smart ass sense of humor... usa sucking ass and doing nothing right... i'll agree with you there..

obama better than jesus? meh... technically I'll have to agree since, if jesus did exist, he's obviously dead now, and a dead person just lays there and does nothing.. anyone can be better than a dead person But if that's the gist you got off me or most others is that we love obama like the 2nd cumming of crist then you're mistaken... on my part at least, can't really speak for others other than the gist that they aren't really happy with obama either, at least that's the impression I've gotten. My big gripe about it? I'm tired of all the one sided thoughts. People who didn't make a peep or complaint about bush are all of a sudden forming groups and self proclaiming them a political town watch who are thwarting every evil deed obama does. And same with the other side, throwing the same temper tantrum "republicans" are throwing now, when bush was in office, but not making a peep about Obama. Now I know I defended Obama, I do believe he has good intentions, but rather not the best judgement, and neither does his administration (sorta the same as the bush administration, but at least he's not a complete moron that listens to obvious war profiteers only, yes i know he listens to them, but he tries to listen to others as well), also, I have to give him some handicap bonus points for walking into a mess to begin with, that the bush administration left behind.

There were alot more people that wanted to run for presidency in the begining of this last election but.. didn't make the popularity cut, however were very rational in their thinking, but sadly didn't have the charisma to pull it into the top 2 finals slots. At the end result, I don't think we had a fair election to begin with since, well, IMO, neither McCain nor Obama really had my confidence.. In this situation I ALMOST didn't vote.. and picked who I thought was the lesser of 2 evils.

I will go on record the final deciding factor was Sarah Palin.. just In my humble opinion, anyone to pick her as VP Is missing some critical screws upstairs that I feel are required to run a country, or at least be the figure head.

The thing is... Hillary won the primary. She is the one that should have gone on to the general election... I would have voted for Hillary over McCain. But no, The elites in the Democratic party had picked Obama... in 2004 to be the next President... and so they used thier "super delagates" to override who the people voted for. I am still shocked she took a job in his cabinet.

Just wanted to point out.. the Tea party's roots start in 2008 when Bush signed the TARP bill. many conservatives were against that bailout... and the one later signed by Obama.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Gaf The Horse With Tears

[phee]

So, your are going to stick with trying to discredit me as a person rather than refute anything I say... fine.

Discredit?

You just spent a huge chunk of the thread trying to discredit siren...

As far as what you have to say... you said that canada's healthcare system was worse the U.S.'s so far I have found that to be untrue... despite comments about Jesus and Obama, and trying to equate disagreeing with you to gaybashing.

It is hard to hold a conversation that is logical with someone who is not concerned with reality... the reality being every Canadian that you say is unhappy with their healthcare actually likes theirs.

Maybe if the thread goes on another few pages, you will actually convince them.... good luck.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Discredit?

You just spent a huge chunk of the thread trying to discredit siren...

As far as what you have to say... you said that canada's healthcare system was worse the U.S.'s so far I have found that to be untrue... despite comments about Jesus and Obama, and trying to equate disagreeing with you to gaybashing.

It is hard to hold a conversation that is logical with someone who is not concerned with reality... the reality being every Canadian that you say is unhappy with their healthcare actually likes theirs.

Maybe if the thread goes on another few pages, you will actually convince them.... good luck.

again with the "gay bashing". Stop kicking that horse... it died the first time. It's not what I meant, it's not what I implied. I didn;t even hint at it. "Huge chunk" my ass. Two responses to her.. thats not a huge chunk.. I have spent more time trying to get you back on topic and to stop attacking me because I dare disagree with one of your friends.

and you can stop putting words in my mouth... NOT ONCE did I say our system was better than Canada's system. NOT ONCE. I said it was flawed and not everyone was happy with it.

You can't actually debate me on what I am saying.. so you put words in my mouth and spin what I do say to mean something differnent than intended.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Gaf The Horse With Tears

[Raev]

BTW: 11% is a small percent of the population. It's still 1% higher than the gay population accounts for. Are you ready to take thier voice away too?

According to Gaf logic, when choosy moms choose Jif they also choose to silence gay people.

So do the 9 out of 10 dentists that prefer Crest.

I don't like to weigh in on political topics on this board often because of the spin doctors and the strong feelings people have for their beliefs. I must pipe up to say this though-

Gaf, your spinning and propaganda on here has reached an all time low. The spinning and hypocrisy that I've seen here astonishes me. Same with the backpedaling.

I have seen better conduct from Faux News.

Oh....and Gaf...

So, your are going to stick with trying to discredit me as a person rather than refute anything I say... fine

Practice what you preach sir. You still are avoiding this...

I have a question for all the people that have never lived in Canada and think that they know so much about how "horrible" our health care must be here since some guy on CNN told them so. If our health care is so bad and yours is so much better, then why is our average life excpectancy 3 years higher than yours and our infant mortality rate is lower than the U.S.?

[Jinx]

So, your are going to stick with trying to discredit me as a person rather than refute anything I say... fine.

Well since for the most part everything you have said is either pure conjecture or paraphrasing of others to fit a narrative it's much easier to identify the person as the problem instead of the argument. Please go back to the several links I posted on page 1 they are from intergovernmental and global organizations not polls in media outlets. Every industrialized nation that has national healthcare has a better life expectancy and care per dollar spent than the U.S. That is an indisputable fact.

Bush was as bad of a president as his relation Franklin Pierce. Obama to me has be weak and ineffectual on several issues I care about that is why I have thrown my full support behind General Zod for 2012.

Kneel before Zod

Edited December 18, 2010 by Jinx