So...11+ countries in the middle east are going nuts

[candyman]

I have been watching the protests, riots, and uprisings with interest now and I have come to realize that, well, there really is not talk about it compared to other things...like Charlie Sheen!

Do you see any positives? Negatives? Anything? I just see too much of nothing when it comes to discussion on a topic I would have though would be somewhat hot.

Personally, I am slightly disturbed by the UN once again acting slowly enough to prevent bad things from happening. I am also disturbed by the fact that Obama said "Sure!" when they UN mentioned troops might be needed. As if the Middle East wan't pissed of at us already NOW more of them are because "the West" failed them when we asked for help. Well, I guess the didn't all hate us...good thing we are fixing that one right there...a simple no-fly zone would have done the trick!

[phee]

I think it is moving from a bad situation to another bad situation and although the pieces are being moved around the board, very little will change... some countries will get more "freedom" and get along better with the west that didn't before... some will get worse and some dick-tater will fill the vacuum....

[Vater Araignee]

It is all spin and media control.

The majority of the populace will not find out the true reasons behind anything unless it furthers the goals of the uppers.

I had to find out what is going on in Egypt and their drafting of a new constitution by accidentally stumbling on a blog that caused me to research further.

Basically the choice is hurry up and except this or the military takes control and decides, never mind that it amounts to the same thing.

Why don't we just hand them ours? It served us great for a very long time and we aren't using it so let them have it.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Vater Araignee

[candyman]

Well, we or should I say I do not want any more deployments than we already have. THAT is why I am concerned.

I guess the Army times is giving us a bit more information here. Most of these countries are really messed up...in Libya the youth rebelled and a good portion of the military joined them. Now it is kinda a lopsided battle going on. The rebels are being pounded with everything from massive artillery to jets from a walled in city where the local laws have gone nuts...people being shot for being out past curfew. They called for a no-fly zone, the UN waited like usual, and France and the United States are supporting it while Russia opposes it.

Egypt could cool down...however Libyan rebels are fleeing to Egypt and now there is worry over that. And then there are the other countries where the answer to the protests is rockets and those bullet things...

[Vater Araignee]

I agree that we need to stay out of it.

Sometimes a civil war needs to happen.

With our track record we have no business picking sides.

Ho Chi Minh, Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, the Taliban, just to name a few we backed at one point.

[candyman]

I am still kinda torn...I don't want to get involved but oddly enough they seem to be begging for help...OUR help not just the UN because they know how the UN handles things. And I want to help but I don't know how we would help without getting too involved...as in troops and too much money. We would be blamed for simple and unnecessary yet constantly occurring innocent deaths and anything else that doesn't go according to "plan"...

[Reaper]

I think its a double-edged sword when you have Libya resistance asking for US help. On one hand, you are helping to liberate them, which causes other countries to hate you. Or you don't help, and cause the resistance to hold a grudge against you, possibly turning terrorist because you represented an image and didn't own up to it and they lost from it.

I am also seeing how we seem weak to other countries now which are taking advantage of our new Niceness clause. Luckily, that guy in Pakistan was released. I was afraid they were going to ignore us and release the guy to the natives.

[candyman]

I don't know what other countries would hate us if we helped the resistance...in the talks most of the Arab nations were asking for us to help and for us to at least impose a no-fly zone. So, in this case if we were not in the Iraq Afghan thing this could be a real win for us...could be...

[shewolf1321]

I don't really know about any of this. Every time something like that comes on my son changes the channel. 7 year olds are not interested in stuff like that. Dad said it's bad, real bad, he worried it will cause major economic damage for the less fortunate people in this country.

[Vater Araignee]

Well UNSC 1973 has passed.

So here is what I think is going to look like happened.

America will be enforcing the no-fly zone over Libya.

The Libyan government fire upon and down and American.

America will deploy, spreading troops even thinner.

Here is what will really happen.

America will be enforcing the no-fly zone over Libya.

There will be a false flag operation firing upon and downing and American.

America will deploy, spreading troops even thinner.

[TitsMcGee]

The French are enforcing it too.

[Vater Araignee]

The French are enforcing it too.

Even better, that means the CIA can down a French pilot, blame the Libyan government, and America goes to war and gain back some French love.

[Destroit]

Even better, that means the CIA can down a French pilot, blame the Libyan government, and America goes to war and gain back some French love.

*siiiigh* Wow...I don't even know how to comment to that. I mean hell, I COULD go steal my neighbor's car and blame it on someone else, but that doesn't mean I'm going to do it. Maybe that's what I'm getting at...

*siiiigh* Wow...I don't even know how to comment to that. I mean hell, I COULD go steal my neighbor's car and blame it on someone else, but that doesn't mean I'm going to do it. Maybe that's what I'm getting at...

[Destroit]

Well UNSC 1973 has passed.

So here is what I think is going to look like happened.

America will be enforcing the no-fly zone over Libya.

The Libyan government fire upon and down and American.

America will deploy, spreading troops even thinner.

Here is what will really happen.

America will be enforcing the no-fly zone over Libya.

The Libyan government fire upon and down and American.

America will deploy, spreading troops even thinner.

Fixed!

(Not everything is a conspiracy, sorry. People who look for conspiracy in everything are just as bad as the cover-ups themselves. If such extreme conspiracies are right, then my cat, Gitzie, is clearly the dominant species, both Lady Gaga AND myself have a huge honkin' weiner, and the president lives in my pants on the weekends (but don't tell Michelle! )

Fixed!

(Not everything is a conspiracy, sorry. People who look for conspiracy in everything are just as bad as the cover-ups themselves. If such extreme conspiracies are right, then my cat, Gitzie, is clearly the dominant species, both Lady Gaga AND myself have a huge honkin' weiner, and the president lives in my pants on the weekends (but don't tell Michelle! )

Edited March 19, 2011 by Chernobyl

[Slogo]

Fixed!

AND myself have a huge honkin' weiner,

This part may be true

[Vater Araignee]

Fixed!

(Not everything is a conspiracy, sorry. People who look for conspiracy in everything are just as bad as the cover-ups themselves. If such extreme conspiracies are right, then my cat, Gitzie, is clearly the dominant species, both Lady Gaga AND myself have a huge honkin' weiner, and the president lives in my pants on the weekends (but don't tell Michelle! )

Correct but if you go on factual behavior of the past then if we enter war with Libya then it will be because of a FFO, an outright lie or a violation of our own laws.

Advance Knowledge of Pearl Harbor.

Operation Ajax

Bay of Pigs

Gulf of Tonkin

Attack on USS Liberty

And many more.

[Destroit]

This part may be true

[Vater Araignee]

After initially taking a cautious stance on armed intervention in Libya's civil war, Obama ordered the strikes citing the threat posed to civilians by Moamer Kadhafi's forces and a UN-mandated no-fly zone endorsed by Arab countries.

"We must be clear: actions have consequences, and the right of the international community must be enforced," Obama told reporters while on an official visit to Brazil.

The US military said American warships and one British submarine fired at least 110 Tomahawk cruise missiles into Libya against Kadhafi's anti-aircraft missiles and radar.

Oh I get it, UN-mandated no-fly zone = launch missile attacks before the no-fly gets violated.

Well screw false flagging that's just antagonism in it's purest form.

[TitsMcGee]

Oh I get it, UN-mandated no-fly zone = launch missile attacks before the no-fly gets violated.

Well screw false flagging that's just antagonism in it's purest form.

No the rebels shot one of the planes down earlier today I thought.

[Vater Araignee]

No the rebels shot one of the planes down earlier today I thought.

If true then that would warrant attacking rebels not Libyan military installations.

[TitsMcGee]

If true then that would warrant attacking rebels not Libyan military installations.

But the Libyan military was the one who broke the no fly zone treaty, thus getting military installations attacked.

[kat (1)]

Why don't we just hand them ours? It served us great for a very long time and we aren't using it so let them have it.

+1.

[Vater Araignee]

But the Libyan military was the one who broke the no fly zone treaty, thus getting military installations attacked.

The first missile struck at 1900 GMT following air strikes carried out earlier by French warplanes, said Gortney, director of the US joint staff.

"It's a first phase of a multi-phase operation" to enforce the UN resolution and prevent the Libyan regime from using force "against its own people," he said.

First that doesn't sound anything like "Libya brook the no-fly zone."

Second, that plane shot down by the rebels was supposedly one Gaddafis. Read as no investigation that can't be investigated anyway.

Third it is not a treaty, that would imply that both the government and the rebels agreed to it.

But it comes out that UNSC resolution 1973 isn't just the initialization of a no-fly zone, it allows for "appropriate response" without definition of "response to" or what is "appropriate".

It has been a long time since I read the United Nations Charter but I seem to recall provisions against interfering with the internal affairs of a country under civil war. Of course it only takes a majority vote of the permanent members to change it so if the U.S.A, France and the U.K. change their minds, then it is so.

Wow 192 members and only 3 out of five of them are technically required to change policy.

[candyman]

Here I can fix this very easily.

Libyan government called a cease-fire before the no-fly zone to try and curb the slow moving UN. However, Libyan artillery continued to shell rebel towns 2 days after the "cease-fire" was imposed. Confirmed by Libyan and red-cross doctors as well as...well...it isn't too damn hard to tell when artillery is firing for those of you that don't know.

The no-fly zone is NOT part of the American thing...those would be French planes and unless the rebels retook most of the capital city, which they didn't, then they were not the ones that shot the FRENCH plane down. OUR sorties are located elsewhere to ensure that no other countries join in...kinda like a fence.

The missiles were launched in support of the rebels which include much of the former Libyan military. If you seem to think that we cannot launch missiles in support of allied troops during a no-fly zone you need to do a little bit more of that studying thing...we did not agree to the cease fire.

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that the rebels in Libya have a government that has been recognized by the Arab nations and much of the UN...so for anyone that says we cannot be doing what we have done so far...WRONG!

[Vater Araignee]

I have read 1973, I know that more that a NFZ was imposed by it, I also know that had it just been a NFZ then unprovoked strikes would have been disallowed.

Now take into account that before copies got released/leaked what have you our "Friends" on the security council claimed they would not vote to pass the resolution unless 1 of 2 things happened.

1. make it a NFZ only resolution where retaliatory strikes can only be performed because of attempts to prevent policing the sky's and or Violating the NFC.

2. Clearly define "response to" and "appropriate action".

The downed jet being spoken of, was a claim made by the rebels (the civilians joined with the military defectors) to be of Gaddafi military origin not French. So IF that "Gaddafi military jet" was in fact a French jet then the rebels are the ones who should be on the receiving end of a retaliatory strike.IF.

But hey Gaddafi is an idiot, all he has to do is exactly what we are not doing...

Follow international human rights law.

Follow international humanitarian law.

Stop using Xe Services(Blackwater) *cough cough* I mean private security forces *cough cough* I mean mercenaries *cough cough* piece of sit bastards only worthy of summary execution.

Patriots don't want mercs in this nation. They should be killed off like rats. If not, they come home and breed more mercs. The true Patriots will breed more true Patriots. Kill off the Goddamned green chasing mercs who would shoot us in our backs for an extra grand and we will have a nation of red white and blue casing Patriots.

~~~edit to add~~~

Keep in mind I'm not antiwar, I'm antiwar for profit and anti breaking laws we are supposedly to subscribe to.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Vater Araignee