vanishing Detroit

[Simon Bar Sinister]

yeah, so...census data for Detroit and the rest of Michigan is out. big drop. real big drop. Detroit's population fell by about 25%. Flint went from being the 4th largest city in the state to the 7th. Even Grand Rapids fell 3 or 4 percent, I believe.

more info here: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2011/03/22/census_detroits_population_plummets_25_percent/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed4

[LadyKay]

They all lost their houses. Including me.

[prick]

I believe theres still bad times ahead yet.

[Simon Bar Sinister]

the state is going to lose a seat in the US House of Representatives; we're lucky it wasn't two.

Sterling Heights' pop grew a couple of precent, I think.

Or Asian population's really growing. I approve.

[angry_darkness]

There are no jobs in this state, all the manufacturing went to Mexico, china or elsewhere. Most of the jobs now are service jobs and when the manufacturing left alot of the people went elsewhere to find jobs, so there are less services needed.

[LadyKay]

There are no jobs in this state, all the manufacturing went to Mexico, china or elsewhere. Most of the jobs now are service jobs and when the manufacturing left alot of the people went elsewhere to find jobs, so there are less services needed.

Yep, the pizza/corner store that is up the road from me closed down. It has been open since before I moved. Don't know what happen. It is in a rural area so its not like there is a lot of stuff near by.

[Destroit]

Most of the jobs now are service jobs and when the manufacturing left alot of the people went elsewhere to find jobs, so there are less services needed.

I just find it ironic that the reason the jobs left is because people got greedy with unions, and now we're standing here empty handed. I call it karma, honestly, if we didn't demand $80,000 a year, a pension, full health insurance, a 401k, holiday bonuses, and time and a half overtime to pull a lever on an assembly line making costs ridiculously impossible for companies to keep up with, maybe we would still have factories. I am anti-union, modern unions (the way they are run) should be illegal. Our great-grandparents who established the original unions are probably rolling over in their graves at what a greedy mess it's become.

I just find it ironic that the reason the jobs left is because people got greedy with unions, and now we're standing here empty handed. I call it karma, honestly, if we didn't demand $80,000 a year, a pension, full health insurance, a 401k, holiday bonuses, and time and a half overtime to pull a lever on an assembly line making costs ridiculously impossible for companies to keep up with, maybe we would still have factories. I am anti-union, modern unions (the way they are run) should be illegal. Our great-grandparents who established the original unions are probably rolling over in their graves at what a greedy mess it's become.

[Lillylu29]

Why does everyone want to blame the unions... its not the unions... explain kmart and the greedy ass higher ups that almost closed a great store. Banks arnt union yet they seem to be ripping people off pretty good... Look at walmart their doing great.. there not union but look at where there products are made and how there made.... Yes they do get carried away with some contracts but im sorry its no the cause for our downfall but people sure will use it as a scapegoat. ohh and dont forget about all the millions Kawmie and his family took from detroit, or the 2 people on the school board who squandered a copple hundred thousand.... but yeahh its all the unions fault...

[Destroit]

Why does everyone want to blame the unions... its not the unions... explain kmart and the greedy ass higher ups that almost closed a great store. Banks arnt union yet they seem to be ripping people off pretty good... Look at walmart their doing great.. there not union but look at where there products are made and how there made.... Yes they do get carried away with some contracts but im sorry its no the cause for our downfall but people sure will use it as a scapegoat. ohh and dont forget about all the millions Kawmie and his family took from detroit, or the 2 people on the school board who squandered a copple hundred thousand.... but yeahh its all the unions fault...

Two wrong parties don't make something right...?

Two wrong parties don't make something right...?

[Rev.Reverence]

Why does everyone want to blame the unions... its not the unions... explain kmart and the greedy ass higher ups that almost closed a great store. Banks arnt union yet they seem to be ripping people off pretty good... Look at walmart their doing great.. there not union but look at where there products are made and how there made.... Yes they do get carried away with some contracts but im sorry its no the cause for our downfall but people sure will use it as a scapegoat. ohh and dont forget about all the millions Kawmie and his family took from detroit, or the 2 people on the school board who squandered a copple hundred thousand.... but yeahh its all the unions fault...

They didn't help the situation..probably the first rock down the slide, from what I understand of it....

*grew up in a union household*

[candyman]

Why does everyone want to blame the unions... its not the unions... explain kmart and the greedy ass higher ups that almost closed a great store. Banks arnt union yet they seem to be ripping people off pretty good... Look at walmart their doing great.. there not union but look at where there products are made and how there made.... Yes they do get carried away with some contracts but im sorry its no the cause for our downfall but people sure will use it as a scapegoat. ohh and dont forget about all the millions Kawmie and his family took from detroit, or the 2 people on the school board who squandered a copple hundred thousand.... but yeahh its all the unions fault...

No it is not their fault...but they are not helping either. The unions have the power to help tip the scales and in recent years they have only been tipping the scales in a way that makes them money...the wrong way. Unions also have greedy higher ups if you didn't notice...they are structured along the lines of a corporation and just like the corps. they tend to make the money while their "people" stay in the same spot.

They have become a sticking point and show no signs of changing...they actually seem to be getting worse. If they don't get what they want they up and move the jobs...after they are done crying that is.

Unions started to protect skilled workers so they could get jobs and get paid instead of having unskilled labor destroy their middle class lives. The unions are not necessary because of certifications today and because they have failed the people...

[Vater Araignee]

Why does everyone want to blame the unions... its not the unions... explain kmart and the greedy ass higher ups that almost closed a great store. Banks arnt union yet they seem to be ripping people off pretty good... Look at walmart their doing great.. there not union but look at where there products are made and how there made.... Yes they do get carried away with some contracts but im sorry its no the cause for our downfall but people sure will use it as a scapegoat. ohh and dont forget about all the millions Kawmie and his family took from detroit, or the 2 people on the school board who squandered a copple hundred thousand.... but yeahh its all the unions fault...

Shall I explain to you how a union used a socialist concept to sell itself to people of my pay grade (repair welders) and lower (assembler and testers) causing some to go from 15 an hour to 10 and me to go from nearly 20 an hour to less than 15 so that it was "fair" to people that had only been doing the jobs for months? Some would say this was good for the company because it saved money but it didn't because few had been around long enough for that few dollars an hour to matter conjoined with...

The pay grades above me (20, 30 & 45 an hour) an hour immediately got a 10% pay raise.

Then these higher pay grades (robot technicians, tool makers, electricians, mechanics ect) decided that they didn't have to do their jobs unless the equipment was producing scrap or broke down. The concept seems counter productive to keeping ones job doesn't it?

I'm not bragging by saying I was the best repair welder on my shift. The most of others where to lazy to get certified so there where jobs they legally couldn't do plus none of them could analyze and adapt as fast as me. Because of the techs wouldn't touch the machines unless they where making scrap all the repair welders had to work ridiculously had to get product off the lines and I got stuck onto the Humvee line. Yeah Humvee the government vehicle not Hummer the civilian chunk of shit. Now to get product off the line I had to start compromising my standards (not that hard to do, just swallow some personal pride) and drop to company standards but then had to drop to minimal standards. Every day I had to walk out of that place feeling guilty. Why? I was being forced, by the union, to cost the taxpayer more money by releasing and inferior product that would fail faster AND endangering American solders with the same process. The guilt brought me close to a nervous breakdown, but luckily something happened. A contact with ford expired.

The week before I got my grade as a repair welder another dude had hired in at that grade and couldn't cut it so took a demotion, that why I got promoted. When the company needed to start laying operators off because of an expired contract, the union forced them to repromote him so their "rear guard" didn't lose his job causing me to be demoted and lose almost 4 dollars an hour. I also got to see people with more time in the company than him get laid off because the union was protecting their own.

Now you have people that only did the minimum, people that couldn't do jobs filling positions. What do you think started happening? That's right, contracts started getting lost! The company even shipped jobs down to Mexico in the hopes of improving quality by being allowed to fire individuals who couldn't/wouldn't perform.

Before the union I had a career and a second family with careers after the union I was a slave surrounded by other slaves out to get me and lost my job because of it.

Wanna hear about how went from getting an annual pay increase averaging at 4.3% down to 1.8% wile the union took 2.5%?

Wanna hear about how 65% of the active laborers where willing to take a pay cut so we could keep our jobs but the union miraculously found enough votes from people that where laid off and never showed up to a meeting to defeat us?

Wanna hear about how the union used money I earned to support political candidates I apposed?

I got an anecdote from 1988 that shows what bull shit teacher unions are.

Yeah, there hasn't been an honest Detroit mayor since the 60's, and the school board has been crooked since I can remember, but dishonest unions support dishonest politics. So one can only conclude that unions are a large part of the problem in just about every sector they have their dirty greasy corrupt fingers in.

[Glory13666]

Good reply Vater! I don't have a huge knowledge of unions or politics but from what I've learned in school about how and why they were started and what I know about how they are now, my opinion is that the two are entirely different. I liked your point about the company shipping jobs to Mexico so that they can fire the people who can't/won't perform. How true.

[Lillylu29]

I understand what you are saying but thats not all companys, I did say yes they have gotten carried away with some contracts but at the same time Its Not ALL. and im sorry but again its not ALL the unions fault for thoes who want to blame just the unions.

I to have grown up in a Union household also my grandfather worked for fords for over 20 years, and when he was almost blown off his ladder at the rouge plant (some of you should remember the explosion) and the company tried to screw him over the union was there to get his fair benifits. I to have also been part of a union Teamsters Local 299 and proud of it, when National Rent a car tried to screw me out of my raise the union was there to fight for me, mind you when I worked for National I was working 16 hr shifts 7 days a week and worked my ass off....mind you this was the end of 1999. I just said there not all to blame, sorry if you all have had a bad deal with them, but my experances have been good.

[Destroit]

I understand what you are saying but thats not all companys, I did say yes they have gotten carried away with some contracts but at the same time Its Not ALL. and im sorry but again its not ALL the unions fault for thoes who want to blame just the unions.

I to have grown up in a Union household also my grandfather worked for fords for over 20 years, and when he was almost blown off his ladder at the rouge plant (some of you should remember the explosion) and the company tried to screw him over the union was there to get his fair benifits. I to have also been part of a union Teamsters Local 299 and proud of it, when National Rent a car tried to screw me out of my raise the union was there to fight for me, mind you when I worked for National I was working 16 hr shifts 7 days a week and worked my ass off....mind you this was the end of 1999. I just said there not all to blame, sorry if you all have had a bad deal with them, but my experances have been good.

Not saying they don't or shouldn't help their members! But at what cost to everyone else? What cost to the company? The damage that is caused when GM and all other car companies move out of country because they can't make profit paying for us all?

We need some kind of union organization, they just need to have more restriction on what they can and cannot do imo. Almost all unions are so corrupt they are basically corporations at this point. So we have corporations who would probably fuck us if regulation didn't stop them...(and they get around it sometimes of course) but then we have unions fucking us in another hole but are guised to be our friends and helping us. It's extortion that is legal, basically, it all needs reform!

Like, it should be ILLEGAL to have a union FORCE you to join them or get fired. If you don't want to comply to that and have your paycheck garnished, or are anti-union, well you're fucked...you don't get a choice! You are REQUIRED to be in one to WORK...how fucked up that?!

Not saying they don't or shouldn't help their members! But at what cost to everyone else? What cost to the company? The damage that is caused when GM and all other car companies move out of country because they can't make profit paying for us all?

We need some kind of union organization, they just need to have more restriction on what they can and cannot do imo. Almost all unions are so corrupt they are basically corporations at this point. So we have corporations who would probably fuck us if regulation didn't stop them...(and they get around it sometimes of course) but then we have unions fucking us in another hole but are guised to be our friends and helping us. It's extortion that is legal, basically, it all needs reform!

Like, it should be ILLEGAL to have a union FORCE you to join them or get fired. If you don't want to comply to that and have your paycheck garnished, or are anti-union, well you're fucked...you don't get a choice! You are REQUIRED to be in one to WORK...how fucked up that?!

[candyman]

Yeah the problem is that Unions have little to no restrictions at all. Yes they do help in some cases but alot of the time it is at the cost of others...sometimes the company has good reason not to give people that raise right away. If the economy is tough the unions should realize that if they keep putting the screws down on the companies then you are going to have some problems.

I will use Harley Davidson in Milwaukee as an example. First, I could not get hired even with my credentials because I was not part of the union. Second, the governor at the time decided that the taxes Harley was paying were not enough so the TRIPLED THEM! Yeah...get those evil corporations. Then the union stepped in...to say that its welders needed their bonuses and a pay increase along with a bigger pension. Wow...one thing at a time please and maybe a little flexibility on the demands? Nope, they were "brave" and stood fast so in the end...Harley shut down 3 plants and all those people lost their jobs.

The same stories are playing out with Mercury Marine, Miller Brewing Co., and Oshkosh Corp all of which draw a huge amount of revenue including federal money into Wisconsin. THAT is why I am blaming the unions...THAT is why we cannot move forward. Fine, if they would rather have huge job losses and a loss of state funding rather than suffer a year without pay increases and bonuses I guess that is what they want...but I am going to fight them all the way to the end. Don't even get me started on the the teachers union want because it would be terrible to have to list what they have already gotten over the past few years...greed has no limits I guess...it definitely trumps a quality education.

People leave when there are no jobs...I would rather keep a low paying job that could get better with the economy than no job at all.

[Destroit]

Yes they do help in pretty much everytime it is at the cost of others...sometimes the company has good reason not to give people that raise right away.

Fixed text is in red

Fixed text is in red

[Lillylu29]

You guys also seem to forget YOU are the union demands for more pay raises and better pensions come from YOUR co workers and you. You also have the right to VOTE on YOUR union contract. If you didnt vote then you are also at fault. Its not just the people in the union offices making this stuff up. Your co-workers and yourself have the rights to step in and say hey we dont need pay raises and bigger pensions this time, at the cost of losing peoples jobs.... lets take a slight paycut or keep things the same..... But I dont hear anyone saying they stood up and said that? You complain about the unions but what you fail to relize is YOU are the union :/

[Vater Araignee]

You guys also seem to forget YOU are the union demands for more pay raises and better pensions come from YOUR co workers and you. You also have the right to VOTE on YOUR union contract. If you didnt vote then you are also at fault. Its not just the people in the union offices making this stuff up. Your co-workers and yourself have the rights to step in and say hey we dont need pay raises and bigger pensions this time, at the cost of losing peoples jobs.... lets take a slight paycut or keep things the same..... But I dont hear anyone saying they stood up and said that? You complain about the unions but what you fail to relize is YOU are the union :/

There is the fact that union leadership is almost always voted for within a month of contract negotiations. Understand the rarefactions of that? This frightens people into voting for entrenched individuals because training new people can take 9 months to a year. IE no raise, benefit costs going up without any control, lost benefits.

The fact that over 75% of the major unions do not have open negotiations allows wheeling and dealing to the detriment of both sides. BTW closed negotiations also means we have no way of knowing if the negotiators are bringing what we want to the table.

Like I mentioned in another anti union post, the leaders can find ways of forcing a vote to go the direction they want by way of crook.

Hows this for a dirty trick. We didn't know that we could only legally call for an ejection vote 3 times a decade. As we came to find out later the Local President actually drafted an ejection petition and left it in the break room. It got enough signatures, a vote was called and failed.

9 months later, he had another one and left it in the break room. Those of us that where anti union couldn't figure out who put that there because we decided none of use would attempt it till after next negotiations. Most of the signatures that ended up on it where pro union. Vote failed.

about a year after that, another one appeared but this time they didn't bother leaving it out, it got passed around a union meeting where the people where told to sign it but vote against it. Another vote, another failure.

Those of us that where anti union didn't know we didn't have any more chances.

We spent a lot of time telling people that if they felt like they didn't have any choice but to vote yes on the next contract then they should put U.D. on their ballot.

When the contract passed buy 11%, we demanded a recount with an additional witness over the shoulder of each counter. The actual difference was only 4% and only 16% of the yes votes did not contain U.D. on them.

We saw our chance, drafted the petition, personally went to every voting employee and asked if they would sign it. By the time we where done we had enough signatures to account for the no votes and the yes U.D. But guess what. Even tho most people wanted the union gone we where told that we couldn't call for a vote until July 2013.

The plant officially closed in February of 09 and not a single person got transferred per company policy. Getting proof of zero transfers was the one good thing the union did for us because the union saw a chance to sue if someone had.

[Enishi]

Current Detroit = Real life Fallout Wasteland.

[KatRN05]

Current Detroit = Real life Fallout Wasteland.

Totally fucking agree.

[Destroit]

You guys also seem to forget YOU are the union demands for more pay raises and better pensions come from YOUR co workers and you. You also have the right to VOTE on YOUR union contract. If you didnt vote then you are also at fault. Its not just the people in the union offices making this stuff up. Your co-workers and yourself have the rights to step in and say hey we dont need pay raises and bigger pensions this time, at the cost of losing peoples jobs.... lets take a slight paycut or keep things the same..... But I dont hear anyone saying they stood up and said that? You complain about the unions but what you fail to relize is YOU are the union :/

If the workers believe that, I've got an elephant to sell them...

If the workers believe that, I've got an elephant to sell them...

[Enishi]

Totally fucking agree.

All it needs is some Radroaches and Deathclaws and the semblance will be perfect, lol.

[Slogo]

Current Detroit = Real life Fallout Wasteland.

Down for starting Brotherhood of Steel?

[Destroit]

Down for starting Brotherhood of Steel?

Only if I get to be President for the Republic of New Warren.

Only if I get to be President for the Republic of New Warren.