You have got to be kidding me.

[Vater Araignee]

The point being that some folks no matter how much proof is right in front of them will still not budge... inductive verses deductive reasoning. If a person has already decided the Obama is not native born, it does not matter how much proof is right in front of them... they will still believe it no matter what, that will not change.

It's like arguing with a creationist, no matter how much evidence is right in front of them disproving their claim they will continue to believe what they wish.

In the case of some with the "birther" argument.... they decided a long time ago that Obama was not born here and seek only to find facts that support their belief and ignore everything else.

vs. say a more scientific approach in which you look at the facts you have and shape a theory/hypothesis based on what is there... not struggle to find facts to support something you have already made up your mind about.

Exact same argument I would throw out. Of course I sand in the middle by arguing that you cant know that there is a god or that there isn't. The same holds true with Obamas standing, there is not enough unquestionable evidence to say he was born on American soil. In fact there is zero unquestionable evidence, on the other hand there is plenty of questions.

Question #1 how did a document that they Hawaiian government claim did not exist suddenly appear in their records?

Question #2 why does this document still say certificate of live birth. It is a fact that 2 out of three documents are issued there with every birth. Document one is the birth certificate, it is suppose to appear in every case. Document number two is one of two possibilities. Either a certification that the birth was live or a certification that it was still. For the latter some states only issue the standard death certificate and other issue a certificate of still birth.

Question #3 why does his grandmother remember attending his birth in Kenya?

Understand this, no proof has been given concerning his place of birth and I will not except god as fact or fiction till proof is given one way or another so I will not except Barry Saetoros birthplace on faith.

Because of your refusal to see that the "evidence" is questionable I have to tell you, stop worshiping the man. Of course that was pointless of me to say because just like you cant talk sense into the true atheist you cant talk sense into the true believer.

[phee]

I agree, there are really no absolutes.... but at a certain point one must go on what is most probable...

I personally can't even prove that Hawaii is a state... or that Vater is not a giant purple gorilla living in the Henry Ford hospital helepad wind sock in Detroit... but I believe Hawaii is a state as much as I believe Obama is a citizen as much as I believe Vater is a human being.... but I could be wrong.

But lets think about it in this way...

1.) Hawaii is an island and no other state is an island, so maybe it is not a real state.

2.) There is a large Japanese culture present in Hawaii more so than any other state I have visited... so maybe it is actually part of Japan that has been kept quiet by the Government ever since Pearl Harbor.

3.) It is closer to the supposed site where the city of R'lyeh is in the Cthulhu mythos... so perhaps by believing Hawaii is an actual state we are actually helping the Old Ones rise and devour the Earth.... So perhaps we should just be cautious and Nuke it.

(or maybe we could get over this and move on to actual problems.... Ia Ia!)

[phee]

http://www.detroitgothic.net/index.php?showtopic=30264

[Reaper]

It would not have been an issue had he not denied everyone to see it over the 2 years. Have to remember that when Hilary Clinton was running against him, she brought up the birth certificate issue first. With the name he has, I'd be suspicious as well. But I think every President and politician should have to provide these proofs, just as much as we as citizens have to for passports, renewals for anything, and whatever else. Its bad enough that politicians already exempt themselves from a lot of things including murder. Why not make them all go thru one extra step, no matter who they are? Afterall, we ARE living in a world where people are actually acting out scenarios from tv shows thinking that they might just work in real life.

[Destroit]

[phee]

NICE!!!

[Soulrev]

Umm yeah whatever they released is a fake. Download the .pdf from the White House website and open it with Adobe Illustrator. It's been photoshopped to hell. After opening it, right click on the image and select "Release Clipping Mask". You can then move all the layers they left open. Don't believe me? Do it yourself.

It's just more BS to get everyone to argue over this, and not the fact that our dollar is falling through the cracks by the day, and unemployment.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Soulrev

[Vater Araignee]

Umm yeah whatever they released is a fake. Download the .pdf from the White House website and open it with Adobe Illustrator. It's been photoshopped to hell. After opening it, right click on the image and select "Release Clipping Mask". You can then move all the layers they left open. Don't believe me? Do it yourself.

It's just more BS to get everyone to argue over this, and not the fact that our dollar is falling through the cracks by the day, and unemployment.

But dude, anyone who tries to argue about the nose diving fiat and the record joblessness knows that they would need to be slapped for proposing any such form of stupidity to the contrary.

Of course when the only arguments that someone has is hyperbole that has gone past absurd or outright lying about what someone says tho it is in writing, maybe they do think that others are just spending their valuable dollars wrong and taking unpaid extended vacations.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Vater Araignee

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

This all could have been avoided if Obama had just shown the document when asked to. It's a Constitutional requirment and as Citizens everyone has a Right to demand to see it.

[Nightgaunt]

First of all, I am sick to goddamned death of being called "racist" every single time I disagree with something that the Obama administration does. I am hereby declaring that anyone who believes that Obama is a citizen is a child molester. How about that? I've just invalidated every argument or opinion you have on the subject by slapping a label on you. True, I may not know you, but it sure is convenient for me.

Second, while I do think that there are serious questions that have not been answered, I think that the whole issue is nothing but another distraction. He may not be a citizen and that's unconstitutional, but it pales in comparison to the bigger picture. I'm not going to go off on another of my diatribes. Those with eyes to see will see. I understand that most won't look behind the curtain, because to do so results in a whole lot of worry and anxiety. It throws our whole concept of American government into question when we realize that the whole Republican-Democrat "rivalry" is just a dog and pony show and that other interests are in control. It's scary and we've been conditioned to remain little people and simply believe what we're told by the big people.

Seriously, the racism charge is the fallback position of those who just don't want to think. It's insulting and it's nothing but an excuse to avoid considering uncomfortable questions.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

First of all, I am sick to goddamned death of being called "racist" every single time I disagree with something that the Obama administration does. I am hereby declaring that anyone who believes that Obama is a citizen is a child molester. How about that? I've just invalidated every argument or opinion you have on the subject by slapping a label on you. True, I may not know you, but it sure is convenient for me.

Second, while I do think that there are serious questions that have not been answered, I think that the whole issue is nothing but another distraction. He may not be a citizen and that's unconstitutional, but it pales in comparison to the bigger picture. I'm not going to go off on another of my diatribes. Those with eyes to see will see. I understand that most won't look behind the curtain, because to do so results in a whole lot of worry and anxiety. It throws our whole concept of American government into question when we realize that the whole Republican-Democrat "rivalry" is just a dog and pony show and that other interests are in control. It's scary and we've been conditioned to remain little people and simply believe what we're told by the big people.

Seriously, the racism charge is the fallback position of those who just don't want to think. It's insulting and it's nothing but an excuse to avoid considering uncomfortable questions.

This...

[the eternal]

I DONT CARE.

I'm sure he's a native born son of a tropical island nowhere near the mainland populated

by people that consider SPAM a delicacy, but you know what, I just don't give a shit.

The fact that so many people violate so many laws and complain abut so many others and yet cling

to this ridiculous requirement is beyond me.

You're honestly telling me that being born on American soil somehow makes someone more equipped than

someone who moved here when they were two?

We know less about our own country than the average immigrant.

Newsweek gave a basic dumbed-down civics quiz with mind-rattling questions from the US citizenship test like "Who is the current vice president?" and 38 percent FAILED.

I leave you with this question.

In the future, the body of a great man and a...a...a...not so great man are both unfrozen from their cryogenic state.

They run for President. One an immigrant. One, a Staten Island native.

Who would you choose to run this country?

OR

[Vater Araignee]

In the future, the body of a great man and a...a...a...not so great man are both unfrozen from their cryogenic state.

They run for President. One an immigrant. One, a Staten Island native.

Who would you choose to run this country?

Neither. The first is ineligible and regardless of his ability and intentions does not and should never have the right to run.

The second would end up on a Republicrat or Demapublican ticket and considering they are just two sides of a double faced coin I wouldn't vote for either. Lacking a suitable candidate in any other party then I wouldn't cast a presidential vote, period.

[Nightgaunt]

I leave you with this question.

In the future, the body of a great man and a...a...a...not so great man are both unfrozen from their cryogenic state.

They run for President. One an immigrant. One, a Staten Island native.

Who would you choose to run this country?

I don't really care in this situation either, for different reasons.

However, if this country still resembled the Representative Republic that it was set up to be, I would care very much. In fact, I think that the "I don't care" attitude is responsible in part for the situation we find ourselves in now. If we say, "Wellllll...the part of the Constitution that enumerates the requirements for being President isn't really that important," then that opens the door to ultimately saying, "Wellll...that First Amendment isn't really that important." Either you have a Constitution that is the ultimate law of the land, or you don't. The whole point is to prevent a potential dictator from picking and choosing the bits (s)he does or doesn't like.

Since however, the citizenry of this country have demonstrated over the course of several generations that it doesn't care about liberty, and has allowed the wholesale shredding of the Constitution, I don't particularly care about the birth certificate issue. We've opted for slavery and we're just waiting for the infrastructure of a police state to be completed.

Einstein or a half naked guy? Can't we just thaw out Ron Paul and be done with it?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I would not vote for Einstien even if her were eligable and runnnig against Jimmy Carter. Eistien is a horrible choice ... his super IQ made him unfit to lead anything. We get the joke about going to work without your pants because he did that.. for real. REally really smart people are usually only good at one thing... in his case it was thinking about really really small things. The man could barely tie his shoes.

[Vater Araignee]

11:45 AM ET, 09/20/2011

To date, despite continuing legal challenges, the Hawaii Department of Health has refused to make public or to release to independent forensic examination by qualified examiners the original Obama birth records yet held in secret in the Hawaii Department of Health files.

I only found this out because the most idiotic high profile sheriff in the country Joe Arpaio has ordered a cold case investigation.

I say Good for Hawaii for standing up for their right but boo to them for not settling this by letting someone prove or disprove if the PDF they released is a fake.

Hey Hawaii, you guys have proven your point, now save taxpayer dollars and end this.