Tim Osman is dead? Maybe but there is still a lie.

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

Personally, I'm not even going to bother worrying about it. The story is bullshit, that much is obvious, is osama dead? is he alive? It's not that big of a deal to me personally since there's so many others to take his place. Would they release a new osama video? I think they would! And hoax or not, I would have a big shit eating troll grin on my face if such a video ever surfaced!

But on a different note, glad I didn't post anything yesterday when I read all the crazy noise the moderators greatfully removed.. I've noticed a trend of all political threads in dgn..

first page: the startings of a decent political discussion/debate

second page: it somehow instantly degrades into personal insults laced in with off topic posts

third page: the thread is on life support resulting in one or more people getting warned or banned.

Moral of the story, if you have a brain, do not enter internet politics, you shall find none else with a brain.

I however, am very brainy, the brainiest of brains! Tremble under my terrible brainiac power! Oh and nevermind that I post in political threads!

[candyman]

People asking the government...especially the military...for the whole truth need to be taken in for mental analysis. No they are not going to tell you and it doesn't really matter if the information is damaging, not damaging, or simply contains the many uses of bananas...always has been and always will be. It is almost the same reasoning as to why I must call myself Muffler 6 over radio channels even in a non-hostile area...it sounds stupid as shit and so do the other call signs but its SOP.

Deal or live in fear with conspiracy theories that can really be developed around anything...like why corn actually stays in your poop...the "truth" will shock you!

When you hear "these are not the droids you are looking for" just go with it otherwise you are going to get into a mess.

[Vater Araignee]

So after a year with all the bullshit that has dribbled out of the White House, how many of you zealots still believe the claim made by your high priest?

Obama: Don't believe CIA officer Robert Baer, FBI head of counterterrorism Dale Watson, etc etc thatBin Laden died of marfan syndrome in 2001.\

Obama: There was a 40 minute shootout.

Obama: No wait, there was no shootout because only one man was armed.

Obama: But he still used his wife as a sheil...

Obama: OK, he wasn't using his wife as a shield when I saw him get shot in the left eye even though the feed went out before the million dollar compound got breached.

OK so the compound was only worth 25% of that if all the garbage and trash got removed and repairs where made.

Obama: We properly identified him. NO YOU CAN"T SEE PROOF! The pictures and DNA are top secret because if you saw them it would expose something!

[SaGa]

given how less and less people believe the official story. im seeing a run off disconnection with the goverment and its "subjects" i mean citizens. given the laws that are being passed in prep for rioting and protesting. and the 300+ million ammo purchase bye homeland security to give one example. i can only conclude that they are about to do a lot more things that go against what the us people whould ever want. hand over the country to the UN and other foreign powers. the think tanks know the stories wont be believed anymore... so there forced to move fast into there agenda. and not care if anyone even believes the story. as long as they get it done.

[SaGa]

I'm with you generally. I never claim 100% certainty. (bit of a paradox there) But, there is a debate among right wingers about the viability of encouraging "Osama Denial" as a way to help discredit the current administration. (Just google "tea party osama denial" or similar language). Of course its never about getting at the truth, its about getting the power. Similar to say , encouraging doubts about global warming as a POLITICAL tool.

My only point there is , true or not, many will encourage a certain train of thought not with ANY desire to get at the reality of the situation, just as a means to an end, with no real interest one way or the other if it is actually true or not.

to put osama denial. as a right wing belief is a nice way to lump independents. into the right/left area. and to discredit everything. bye forcing it to be a political party motivation. most people i know who do want the truth and feel there being lied to. see both parties as the same head. both left and right politicians pat each other on the back all to often

[Troy Spiral (13)]

to put osama denial. as a right wing belief is a nice way to lump independents. into the right/left area. and to discredit everything. bye forcing it to be a political party motivation. most people i know who do want the truth and feel there being lied to. see both parties as the same head. both left and right politicians pat each other on the back all to often

The right/left thing is a fairly crappy system I agree, (I've done a lot of reading about the subtly of political views over the years) but large numbers of people do identify as right or left wingers to oversimplify, its hard to talk about this stuff in less than novel-length posts without some lets call it, inaccuracy. (I think of myself as an Independent just to throw it out there.

I wish I could stop using examples, people seem to focus on the example and not on the point and miss the whole point. Maybe even worse they get upset when I'm just trying to have a conversation. Not that you were trying to be rude or anything, but the example was just an example, it could have been "the pink polka dot party is using the peanut strategy to gain power".

My only point there, that is, often they (whoever "they" are) couldn't care less about what the actual reality is even though they aren't "creating the idea" necessarily, but they go with it, they just go push what whatever idea will help their side "win" despite any real evidence. Unfortunately that is the way to win more power for "your group" reality be danmned (pesky reality lol) , good example of how the system itself is corrupting, even if people start out with good intentions. =(

I have been a long time truth-seeker, that is, i try to do my homework before making up my mind about something and I try to avoid 1. seeing everything as a conspiracy 2. believing everything I hear and assuming no conspiracies ever exist. I notice a pattern in most people I know were they tend to automatically believe anything that is negative and "dark forces at work" type stuff, or, the exact opposite. I think the truth is neither as far as I can tell. Rarely do the "dark forces" theories seem to hold up, but sometimes they do, so it takes a lot of homework. More than most of us are willing to do on any given subject, so i think the best thing to do is to hold off judgement until you can look deeper into something (and sometimes even that isnt enough and it takes a LOT of homework).

[Vater Araignee]

given how less and less people believe the official story. im seeing a run off disconnection with the goverment and its "subjects" i mean citizens. given the laws that are being passed in prep for rioting and protesting. and the 300+ million ammo purchase bye homeland security to give one example. i can only conclude that they are about to do a lot more things that go against what the us people whould ever want. hand over the country to the UN and other foreign powers. the think tanks know the stories wont be believed anymore... so there forced to move fast into there agenda. and not care if anyone even believes the story. as long as they get it done.

That's 450 million rounds of .40 caliber hollow point ammo alone.

So first we have DHS (H stands for homeland) making the order.

Second, The military claims that amount (if the caliber was standard issue) would cover a minimum of 5 years of usage if they calculate it by using the month of the war in Iraq where they had the highest side arm use.

Third you have to assume the Armed Forces wont break the Geneva Convention, so you know the ammo is intended for domestic use, not simply being stored for the Armed Forces.

Fourth, wile a LEO does have to qualify in the use of a hallow point, they still don't practice with them.

We also have the fact that the war on terror is officially over yet DHS is still expanding TSA to bus, train, cruse ship and the streets.

Only one logical conclusion can be drawn from this small amount of information and I have mountains of information that strengthens it.

[Vater Araignee]

The right/left thing is a fairly crappy system I agree, (I've done a lot of reading about the subtly of political views over the years) but large numbers of people do identify as right or left wingers to oversimplify, its hard to talk about this stuff in less than novel-length posts without some lets call it, inaccuracy. (I think of myself as an Independent just to throw it out there.

I wish I could stop using examples, people seem to focus on the example and not on the point and miss the whole point. Maybe even worse they get upset when I'm just trying to have a conversation. Not that you were trying to be rude or anything, but the example was just an example, it could have been "the pink polka dot party is using the peanut strategy to gain power".

My only point there, that is, often they (whoever "they" are) couldn't care less about what the actual reality is even though they aren't "creating the idea" necessarily, but they go with it, they just go push what whatever idea will help their side "win" despite any real evidence. Unfortunately that is the way to win more power for "your group" reality be danmned (pesky reality lol) , good example of how the system itself is corrupting, even if people start out with good intentions. =(

I have been a long time truth-seeker, that is, i try to do my homework before making up my mind about something and I try to avoid 1. seeing everything as a conspiracy 2. believing everything I hear and assuming no conspiracies ever exist. I notice a pattern in most people I know were they tend to automatically believe anything that is negative and "dark forces at work" type stuff, or, the exact opposite. I think the truth is neither as far as I can tell. Rarely do the "dark forces" theories seem to hold up, but sometimes they do, so it takes a lot of homework. More than most of us are willing to do on any given subject, so i think the best thing to do is to hold off judgement until you can look deeper into something (and sometimes even that isnt enough and it takes a LOT of homework).

Troy,

It isn't that the left/right system is crappy, it is that it it an out right lie.

They are two heads of the same beast that wants to eat you and the only difference is the style they use.

Even the arguments are designed to throw you off your guard.

There was an important lesson the Founding Fathers tried to give us that very few have learned. Never trust government.

I say never trust someone who has power or powerful friends outside of government who wants to be involved in government.

[SaGa]

honestly. i think it was somewhat staged. either way its more of the government making it unprovable if it was or was not. the CIA is refusing to give up the 52 photos they have. citing national security...and the story has changed several times during the days that followed. even the compound is being bulldozed away now. we got no scene anymore/no body. the locals are telling a different story..... this is unacceptable, and just bad story telling on there part.

that whole "it whould make him more of a martyr" excuse is crap. i wont even get into the helicoptor part of the story. but we will never get the truth in hard evidence. untill the documents are declassified. when only historians care about it... but that does not mean im going to believe them because the truth is hidden

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Troy,

It isn't that the left/right system is crappy, it is that it it an out right lie.

They are two heads of the same beast that wants to eat you and the only difference is the style they use.

Even the arguments are designed to throw you off your guard.

There was an important lesson the Founding Fathers tried to give us that very few have learned. Never trust government.

I say never trust someone who has power or powerful friends outside of government who wants to be involved in government.

I do get that they are so similar and so intertwined in their agendas that the differences are more for show or just "around the edges" and that underneath it all they (whoever we want to say "they" are) do have the same general plan(s).

The right/left wing thing was an ideological comment, which is a "real" difference, not about the actual government and how it runs in that case. That case that I was talking about was just the limitations of right/left as a way to describe one's (general) political viewpoint. You or I could (try) to sumarize our views with one of the terms there, but them being so simplistic it would be almost totally wrong. I really didnt mean that as a discussion about the goverment itself and how it runs, not that Im not open to that, I just think my point was different than how it was taken. Just that a broader set of terms (althoguh not so broad as to be useless) would be better than just right/left.

I do agree that there ARE dark forces at work, i just dont think they lurk in every shadow.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

honestly. i think it was somewhat staged. either way its more of the government making it unprovable if it was or was not. the CIA is refusing to give up the 52 photos they have. citing national security...and the story has changed several times during the days that followed. even the compound is being bulldozed away now. we got no scene anymore/no body. the locals are telling a different story..... this is unacceptable, and just bad story telling on there part.

that whole "it whould make him more of a martyr" excuse is crap. i wont even get into the helicoptor part of the story. but we will never get the truth in hard evidence. untill the documents are declassified. when only historians care about it... but that does not mean im going to believe them because the truth is hidden

You think that martyr part is crap? It might be , but for a different reason. Middle eastern fundamentalists LOVE martyrs, LOVE them and osama is the king of kings of the martyr (or would be if the story was legitimate). They also love images of their fallen brothers, especially at the hands of the great western devil. Now there might not BE any pictures, I'm just saying that one reason is fairly legit (even if in the end, its bullshit and the whole thing is a hoax). The suck part about trying to find out what is what is that they classify so much stuff (some of it I think fairly) but some of it for no good reason other than it just gets classified and then its hard as hell to get it declassified that even lets call them "nonthreatening" details are impossible to get.

The pictures part of the osama case is rough, since they wont even release pictures of american casualties, rough in that , they already don't release photos of MUCH less sensitive things, so why they we would expect these pictures (if they exist) I have no real idea. They'd have to change the whole mentality. Although they are scared to death to get us back into the Vietnam era mentality of "fuck the use of force" when information was more freely available. Or rather "fuck killing" because people just , essentially, couldn't stomach seeing dead people, actually seeing them, not just reading lists of numbers and text on a page. Makes it a lot harder to get the budget passed.

[Vater Araignee]

The martyr part is crap. Wile I have no faith in the abilities of allopathy to cure any chronic illness, I do know that if they say "You need dialysis or you will die" then you need dialysis or you will die (unless you are lucky enough to find a cure) and if they say you only have about 2 years then it is doubtful that you will live a decade.

He was close to death and there was no way in hell he was going to run from cave to cave with a dialysis machine.

He died years ago, it is as simple as that.

Now we can assume, he died years ago, and being he was a CIA asset it was known that he was dead and they where just waiting to use the death as a PR stunt.

Did they have the body? I don't know but it doesn't matter because we don't get a picture, hell we don't even get an their DNA evidence let alone have it independently verified. Not that it would matter anyway because I could send you a vile of my blood and you could claim I was dead but it isn't proof that I am.

I do fully believe that he is dead but the Red Squad didn't kill him explaining why every single one that participated in the raid has been murdered.