God No!

[n0Mad]

Go figure, a Christian starting a topic on atheism. And not one to attempt to "debunk" it, insult atheists, etc, but rather one that actually supports the atheist viewpoint. Then again, this does involve one of my heroes, Penn Jillette, and while I don't always agree on everything he says, we do see eye-to-eye on many points and those areas where we don't, we can empathize and respect each others differences. Not many people can do that.

Anyway, this is dedicated to Phee and to my lovely wife TaysteeWonderBunny:

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2011/09/16/penn-jillette-says-he-doesnt-believe-in-god-and-neither-do-you/

Penn Jillette Says He Doesn’t Believe in God and Neither Do You

Penn Jillette isn’t alone in his atheism. The screwy part is that he thinks you don’t believe in God either.

The bigger and louder half of the comedy and magic duo, is out promoting his new book with the decidedly uncomedic and unmagical title God No! Why You May Already Be An Athiest and Other Magical Tales.

In it, he asks readers to consider their own beliefs. And even if you end up unmoved, at least you’ll have enjoyed a raunchy and thought-provoking read.

In an interview with Speakeasy, Jillette talked about how God, or the idea of God, works in our society, our politics and for the families of victims of 9/11. His book borrows from a more famous contemporary atheist, Christopher Hitchens.

Jillette said he began to doubt God, “mostly from reading the Bible.” Jillette said he found something stronger in “the comfort and love of humanity.” He explains that the love of family and friends is far more important to him. And he talks about the randomness and miracle of the lottery called life.

“If you want to turn out an atheist child, unconditional love constantly is a good way to do it,” he said.

Jillette isn’t a religion basher, but he did seem perturbed by how God is discussed. he noted that Republican presidential candidate Michele Bachmann and others have invoked God’s will when discussing hurricanes, earthquakes and other natural disasters.

“It almost sounds like a cruel and heartless atheist making fun of really devout Christian belief,” he said. “And I think that most Christians see that what she’s doing is more blasphemous than what I’m saying. What I’m saying is honest and from my heart.”

Asked how he would comfort someone who lost a loved one on 9/11, Jillette cited the death of his mother, whom he talked to every day until her death in 2000.

“I found atheism to be an incredible comfort,” he said. “I found that the idea of what she was suffering with and what took her away from me was random. If I had to imagine omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent power in the universe that chose to make my mother suffer, I don’t know how I would make that make sense in the universe.”

Jillette said the transition from magician to theological critic isn’t as odd as it may sound.

Magicians, Jillette said, have a tendency to play “both sides of the fence” by either embracing a spiritual connection or debunking it.

“If you spend a lot of time lying to people, you think a lot about what the truth means,” he said.

Jillette comes from a typical church background. His parents were church-goers and by extension the young Jillette was too. “I went to the First Congregationalist Church, or as I like to call it, the church of the covered dish supper.”

His father died a Christian. His mother became an atheist in her late 80s. “In reality many people let go of religion later in life,” he said.

And there's a video but I couldn't get it to embed, so you'll have to follow the link to watch that.

[phee]

I have something dedicated to me! woah... (thanks sir, good read)

[Fierce Critter]

I find it interesting that often, when someone professes an atheistic bent, it's because they have had the picture of an angry, vengeful god thrust on them throughout their lives. They seem to say that they'd rather believe in nothing, than to admit or accept such a cruel being as lording over the world.

I wonder at the black/white of this thought process. There are religions and spiritualities that don't cotton to the picture of a pissed off manipulator at the helm of all there is. I'm not saying atheism is invalid - I am totally down with one deciding that the evidence around them just points to there not being any kind of god, period.

I myself am comfortable in my agnosticism. I've gone from militant Catholic in my younger years (I actually seriously considered donning the habit at one time - seriously), to experimental Wiccan in my 20's, to somewhere in between. And I'm more happy in my spirituality than ever in my life. Part of my comfort lies in the fact that I disbelieve to the point of scoffing at the thought of an omnipotent being that floats over us, throwing distress after disaster after disease on the squares of a live chessboard, while we humans move from horrific space to horrific space trying to figure out how we pissed off the chessmaster. I find that laughable. And I can almost see how I could turn Gillette's argument around to say that to avoid believing in god because you DO see a god in that way says, "I actually do believe, and I don't like what I believe, so I'm going to say I just don't and hide under an umbrella of atheism."

I frankly believe that some kind of omnipotent thing/force/whatever exists that creates, pure and simple. That sets things in motion and lets things evolve as they will. I think he/she/it steps back and says, "Ok. There you are. Do what the fuck you want with it and I won't interfere. It's all yours, bubbie, fuck it up and it's all on you." I think to think otherwise is to try to pass the blame for life's fuckups off one's self and throw your hands up in a cowardly passing of the karmic buck.

But as I don't believe in a manipulative, sadistic god, I do believe in a creative, humorous, empathetic and sympathetic "something." (Not forgiving. Forgiveness implies judgment to me and I think I've made it clear I don't put any credence in that where god is concerned.) Something that, when the chips are seriously down, sometimes tries to help. That maybe said being isn't perfect, and knows it, and is careful - nay, even reluctant - to interfere at possible negative cost even he/she/it can't predict. I don't see lack of involvement as cruel. I see it as a skill limit almost. And maybe as a creation of opportunity. "I can't cure Aunt Millie's cancer, cancer developed, I didn't create it. But, I can fan the spark of determination in Nephew James that will enable him to become the scientist who develops the cure by the time he's 30. If he doesn't finish college, that's on him."

<-- shrug. I just don't like to see the view of a god of vengence, retribution and fear scare people out of their spiritual slacks altogether.

[havoc]

I only need to know 2 things about " My Higher Power" 1. There is one 2. He or She is not me.

[Destroit]

I find it interesting that often, when someone professes an atheistic bent, it's because they have had the picture of an angry, vengeful god thrust on them throughout their lives. They seem to say that they'd rather believe in nothing, than to admit or accept such a cruel being as lording over the world.

I was going to post this, because this article reeks of this and there is no logical reasoning behind much of it. So I figure the person had Christianity shoved on them, and therefore are now atheist, like many. I skipped posting it because I was busy that day and didn't feel like having to reply to all of the people so vehemently defending their belief in nothing . And then people actually assume I believe in anything, which is silly. I think anyone that either "does" believe in something or is sure there's "nothing out there" have an agenda. With the information present to us in the universe currently, there is no real way of knowing, so why do people talk about it so much? Science points both for and against.

I also find it laughable that in the article, their claim to atheism was because God does mean things, and it's more comforting to think that things happen at random. So, if there is some higher power, let's just pretend, and they're trying to put you through perilous tests, much in the same way we all had to go through gym class, do our homework, go to school growing up (so it betters us and makes us stronger, anything unpleasant is a toughener), saying that everything is random occurrences just dying and turning into nothing is better than the thought of such a being existing...? And even if there were a higher power, it's to be said that not everything IS happening at random and that there automatically has to be some kind of "fate" or that God is fucking with us like we're Sims...? I don't get that at all.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Chernobyl

[phee]

I was going to post this, because this article reeks of this and there is no logical reasoning behind much of it. So I figure the person had Christianity shoved on them, and therefore are now atheist, like many. I skipped posting it because I was busy that day and didn't feel like having to reply to all of the people so vehemently defending their belief in nothing . And then people actually assume I believe in anything, which is silly. I think anyone that either "does" believe in something or is sure there's "nothing out there" have an agenda. With the information present to us in the universe currently, there is no real way of knowing, so why do people talk about it so much? Science points both for and against.

I also find it laughable that in the article, their claim to atheism was because God does mean things, and it's more comforting to think that things happen at random. So, if there is some higher power, let's just pretend, and they're trying to put you through perilous tests, much in the same way we all had to go through gym class, do our homework, go to school growing up (so it betters us and makes us stronger, anything unpleasant is a toughener), saying that everything is random occurrences just dying and turning into nothing is better than the thought of such a being existing...? And even if there were a higher power, it's to be said that not everything IS happening at random and that there automatically has to be some kind of "fate" or that God is fucking with us like we're Sims...? I don't get that at all.

Made me think of:

[LadyKay]

“In reality many people let go of religion later in life,” he said.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I have personally known many of people who have followed their religion all the way to the grave. The church I attend is made up mostly by older people. I have also known many older people to find their religion later on in life. They having spent their younger years being wild and out of control. So I disagree with his statement, that is all I have to say. For now that is.

Edited September 19, 2011 by LadyKay

[Vater Araignee]

I find it interesting that often, when someone professes an atheistic bent, it's because they have had the picture of an angry, vengeful god thrust on them throughout their lives. They seem to say that they'd rather believe in nothing, than to admit or accept such a cruel being as lording over the world.

I wonder at the black/white of this thought process. There are religions and spiritualities that don't cotton to the picture of a pissed off manipulator at the helm of all there is. I'm not saying atheism is invalid - I am totally down with one deciding that the evidence around them just points to there not being any kind of god, period.

I myself am comfortable in my agnosticism. I've gone from militant Catholic in my younger years (I actually seriously considered donning the habit at one time - seriously), to experimental Wiccan in my 20's, to somewhere in between. And I'm more happy in my spirituality than ever in my life. Part of my comfort lies in the fact that I disbelieve to the point of scoffing at the thought of an omnipotent being that floats over us, throwing distress after disaster after disease on the squares of a live chessboard, while we humans move from horrific space to horrific space trying to figure out how we pissed off the chessmaster. I find that laughable. And I can almost see how I could turn Gillette's argument around to say that to avoid believing in god because you DO see a god in that way says, "I actually do believe, and I don't like what I believe, so I'm going to say I just don't and hide under an umbrella of atheism."

I frankly believe that some kind of omnipotent thing/force/whatever exists that creates, pure and simple. That sets things in motion and lets things evolve as they will. I think he/she/it steps back and says, "Ok. There you are. Do what the fuck you want with it and I won't interfere. It's all yours, bubbie, fuck it up and it's all on you." I think to think otherwise is to try to pass the blame for life's fuckups off one's self and throw your hands up in a cowardly passing of the karmic buck.

But as I don't believe in a manipulative, sadistic god, I do believe in a creative, humorous, empathetic and sympathetic "something." (Not forgiving. Forgiveness implies judgment to me and I think I've made it clear I don't put any credence in that where god is concerned.) Something that, when the chips are seriously down, sometimes tries to help. That maybe said being isn't perfect, and knows it, and is careful - nay, even reluctant - to interfere at possible negative cost even he/she/it can't predict. I don't see lack of involvement as cruel. I see it as a skill limit almost. And maybe as a creation of opportunity. "I can't cure Aunt Millie's cancer, cancer developed, I didn't create it. But, I can fan the spark of determination in Nephew James that will enable him to become the scientist who develops the cure by the time he's 30. If he doesn't finish college, that's on him."

<-- shrug. I just don't like to see the view of a god of vengence, retribution and fear scare people out of their spiritual slacks altogether.

It is to judgmental, as soon as the experiment is over or get out of control it will be thrown into the sterilization unit and...

Off to the next "Ooooo what happens if I do this instead?"

Or maybe not.