More “Pro-Life” Than “Pro-Choice” for First Time

[Troy Spiral (13)]

More Americans “Pro-Life” Than “Pro-Choice” for First Time in Two Decades (at least) <--- lots more detail.

The May 2009 survey documents comparable changes in public views about the legality of abortion. In answer to a question providing three options for the extent to which abortion should be legal, about as many Americans now say the procedure should be illegal in all circumstances (23%) as say it should be legal under any circumstances (22%). This contrasts with the last four years, when Gallup found a strong tilt of public attitudes in favor of unrestricted abortion.

Never having really heard the polls on this I just assumed this was the case all along and that the activists groups just tended to be the ones that actually cared enough to be likely vote and thats why pro-choice politicians tended to stay in office against the general opinion. (Similar to capital punishment, which is widely popular, but not generally reflected in state laws)

Not that I'm clear one way or the other myself, because the gray areas that can get involved very quickly make it difficult, I'm having a hard time imagining abortion being illegal , at all times, in all cases, no matter what the situation is. (If you read deeper into he article these same gray areas suggest perhaps that the general opinion has not changed that much,just how we define ourselves has changed but the core opinion may remain the same)

[Enishi]

That's odd, I wonder what caused the sudden shift in opinion?

[darknight1]

Hello friends. I've barely had time to drop in and say hello, but anyways, back to topic: the reason can partly be blamed on the growing numbers of individuals who are influenced by right wing political talk show hosts and evangelical figures. In turn, these people influenced by said figures buy into what they are hearing without question, and elect men and women who are "pro-life". I've seen a lot of this happening in Colorado myself. I don't know how it is in Michigan, seeing as how I have not lived there for at least 2 1/2 years now, but I can attest to the gradual shift to the right in much of our political scenery, especially on the question of being pro-choice or "pro-life", if you can really call it that.

[Vater Araignee]

That's odd, I wonder what caused the sudden shift in opinion?

It isn't a sudden shift in opinion concerning abortion, it is a sudden shift in the willingness to voice opinion period.

For many decades we where taught that it was uncouth or radical to express opinions concerning religion and politics. People are starting to understand that this ideology is what has lead us to the current police state and are becoming vocal.

This issue of suddenly appearing to be more is also being used to obfuscate real political issues.

It is a state issue not a country issue, that is until there is a constitutional amendment.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have issues with abortion in both directions and unfortunately piss both sides off. They are called fathers rights. The false right doesn't like the fact that I believe that if a father wants the child to be aborted and the mother refuses then he should be legally absolved of any responsibility. The false left doesn't like the fact that I believe that if the father wants the child and the mother doesn't then he should be forced to pay for her medical bills wile she is forced to carry to term (baring life threatening) and terminate all of her parental rights.

It is just as much a womans responsibility to use protection as a mans and they are both as guilty when it isn't used.

[torn asunder]

if you choose your data set right, you can make the numbers say anything...

[Vater Araignee]

if you choose your data set right, you can make the numbers say anything...

Also true.

I would say it also has something to do with all the Mormon commercials we got inundated with 3 years ago when RNP elite decided Romney was the republican candidate regardless of who the people wanted.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I can't remember a time when I knew more pro-choice people than pro-life people in my "real life". I also cant remember a time when abortion was not at least fairly stigmatized. Especially among the women I know personally. Not that this is relevant in the big picture, I try and not confuse my personal experience, limited sample size, with reality as a whole. What is or what was that reality? Take your pick.

Straight, unqualified "pro choice" vs "pro life" has not sat well with at half the people polled in general, that is they are in a grey area depending on the situation.

Having long been a gray area for many people (only the most vocal people tend to be hardcore extremists to one end or the other) these distinctions have come to be called "pro life" or "pro choice" when really they are somewhere in the middle, and generally it seems the "gray area people" are "pro life leaning" and (again the hypothesis goes) that they are more comfortable just shortening it to "pro choice" or "pro life" when really they are not STRICT "pro life" or "pro choice" in the traditional sense. So the theory goes this is how you end up with results like this, even though the conventional wisdom assumes the core opinions have not changed much.

[0pheliA]

The change is in how the Pro-Life movement is presenting its side. Calling itself Pro-Life in the first place is already standard practice of the Right to label things in a way that make you feel guilty to not agree with ; take a look at their history of policies. Don't Ask Don't Tell just being an example, sounds progressive and inclusive and isn't. Patriot Act. No Child Left Behind. Pro-Life screams "if you aren't Pro-Life, you are Pro-Death."

And the big difference is now that idea is being screamed over the airwaves instead of just inferred. The Right has been getting progressively more aggressive with all its policies in this way. It is winning on some things, losing on others. They are losing the gay fight, winning the war on women. Though once some voters on the right realize "hey this moron wants to ban birth control and condoms, what is wrong with this idiot?", then the Right will lose its voice.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

The change is in how the Pro-Life movement is presenting its side. Calling itself Pro-Life in the first place is already standard practice of the Right to label things in a way that make you feel guilty to not agree with ; take a look at their history of policies. Don't Ask Don't Tell just being an example, sounds progressive and inclusive and isn't. Patriot Act. No Child Left Behind. Pro-Life screams "if you aren't Pro-Life, you are Pro-Death."

And the big difference is now that idea is being screamed over the airwaves instead of just inferred. The Right has been getting progressively more aggressive with all its policies in this way. It is winning on some things, losing on others. They are losing the gay fight, winning the war on women. Though once some voters on the right realize "hey this moron wants to ban birth control and condoms, what is wrong with this idiot?", then the Right will lose its voice.

I think that also goes for pro-choice though, who isn't 'pro choice" in everyday language ? No I'm "anti-choice!" Americans especially love choices (in a general sense). I'm ok with the labels even though they might not be all that great, its just what we have to work with.

That second paragraph, while I think true in thelong term, and I understand/agree with the whole overall sentiment. (although I wouldn't call them idiots, I need to keep the dialog open, insults usually closes it, not that I might privately hold politically unpopular views) In the shorter term there are very powerful lobbying groups that want to limit access to condoms and birth control (ban them if they could , but that isnt realistic).

I think eventually the "current" right will lose its motivation, but first and foremost the goal is to get elected, so either side will just morph into something different if it its platform becomes shaky. Today's hardcore conservative was what would have been considered a "liberal" a 100 years ago. But they got that way kicking and screaming along the way. Its an interesting (and important but often ignored) transformation.

The problem with all of this sort of thing is it becomes emotional very fast and that polarizes things and ends discussions. I think the vast majority of people, even with totally opposing viewpoints are well meaning, and appealing to that intention, rather than focusing on the differences is the way to go. But I've also been accused of being "too nice" (bah! hell no I'm hardcore!! .. ok no one buys that but... )

[0pheliA]

I was not calling anyone an idiot, though I can see how it could be inferred. I was quoting an imaginary person that would represent a good chunk of society. I apologize for the misunderstanding though.

I often say "It is ironic to see conservatives fight tooth and nail to preserve traditions that liberal minded had to fight to teach them in the first place."

The world needs a balance of liberal and conservative minded people to keep each other in check. That is where progress comes from. However when one side starts fighting to move backwards, there is a serious failure.

We also seem to live in a time where the Right can flat out state the things that were until now seen as conspiracy theory in their political speeches and agendas.

As example ;

By the next election after this one, we could see bumper stickers saying things like "Fuck Women, not like they are real people anyways."

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I was not calling anyone an idiot, though I can see how it could be inferred. I was quoting an imaginary person that would represent a good chunk of society. I apologize for the misunderstanding though.

I often say "It is ironic to see conservatives fight tooth and nail to preserve traditions that liberal minded had to fight to teach them in the first place."

The world needs a balance of liberal and conservative minded people to keep each other in check. That is where progress comes from. However when one side starts fighting to move backwards, there is a serious failure.

We also seem to live in a time where the Right can flat out state the things that were until now seen as conspiracy theory in their political speeches and agendas.

As example ;

By the next election after this one, we could see bumper stickers saying things like "Fuck Women, not like they are real people anyways."

It seems scary, although really the push in some parts of the conservative movement to roll-back of womens rights can't hold. Its near impossible. They are forced through gritting teeth to court illegal immigrants and minorities nowadays which would have been unheard of in days of yore. Women, the second largest voting block that exists, far more powerful than these other groups, good luck on pissing them off for more than a few years if you want to keep your job, they politicians know what side their bread is buttered on in the end, keeping your job is the highest priority on the agenda. The less acceptable aspects of traditional conservatism are dead or dying. Unification of church and state, blocking gay rights, reproductive issues, despite all the chest thumping just isn't going to pass muster for long. Unfortunately it might be a decade or two before its mostly gone, but its in the death throws. These "flare ups" are especially common in run ups to elections to try and get the especially motivated (typcially the most fanatical) members of a parties base in motion, before they then start back pedaling to seem more "normal" and get elected.

[Nymada del Sol]

It is highly disturbing when politicians from both sides of the isle can just say random shit and not be expected to back it up. The U.S has become a place where science and facts do not matter to the people at large.

Now the GOP just randomly spouts crap with no basis in reality and regularly gets away with it.

I myself am just tired of lying politicians who play fast and loose with facts to get what they want. This abortion debate is just one of many issues where science and facts take a backseat to emotional rhetoric

[0pheliA]

I was actually going to mention something about them being on their death throws.

When a movement is struggling the most is when the loudest most absurd (ie crazy) voices tend to come out and take the reigns. They start using the most questionable tactics in a mad fight to gain ground they have lost. As messed up as the world seems now, I am very happy to be a part of it. We are in a time of great historical importance, because a great shift is taking place. In terms of politics, religion, social progress, etc. I just hope some of the more important changes (such as environmental issues) can change fast enough.

[Nymada del Sol]

I was actually going to mention something about them being on their death throws.

When a movement is struggling the most is when the loudest most absurd (ie crazy) voices tend to come out and take the reigns. They start using the most questionable tactics in a mad fight to gain ground they have lost. As messed up as the world seems now, I am very happy to be a part of it. We are in a time of great historical importance, because a great shift is taking place. In terms of politics, religion, social progress, etc. I just hope some of the more important changes (such as environmental issues) can change fast enough.

I noticed as well. More people are getting involved and voicing their view. Occupy, lulsec, anons and others are just the beginning.

[Vater Araignee]

It is highly disturbing when politicians from both sides of the isle can just say random shit and not be expected to back it up. The U.S has become a place where science and facts do not matter to the people at large.

Now the GOP just randomly spouts crap with no basis in reality and regularly gets away with it.

I myself am just tired of lying politicians who play fast and loose with facts to get what they want. This abortion debate is just one of many issues where science and facts take a backseat to emotional rhetoric

Just for the sake of argument... And the left doesn't spout crap that has no basis in reality and regularly gets away with it?

And how about blatant contradictions like loving to prosecute people for thought crimes. "I'm liberal so that makes it ok for me to demand you are permanently imprisoned for thinking that way!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Both sides are nothing but a bunch of moronic "my way or the die way" fascists who amazingly enough are in the minority and belong in a museum.

This country has 3 kinds of people in a political sense.

The second smallest group is the sheeple and they identify as either DemoCRIPS or ReBLOODlicans and fail to understand that tho the rhetoric is different the agenda is identical.

The smallest group but growing is the awake/ned (yes some where never anything else so cant be call awakened) and very rarely is an inductee to this group recruited from the sheeple. We don't necessarily agree on rhetoric but we do understand what the FedGov has no business sticking their nose into. Like abortion.

The largest group by leaps and bounds are the zombies. What can I say about them? Most just want to stay in their vegetative state and not do shit till it personally effects them. Fortunately the dictatorship is making many of them stop being zombies, unfortunately more than zero are becoming sheeple.

Q: What is the difference between Romney and Obama?

A: Skin color.

[Nymada del Sol]

Just for the sake of argument... And the left doesn't spout crap that has no basis in reality and regularly gets away with it?

And how about blatant contradictions like loving to prosecute people for thought crimes. "I'm liberal so that makes it ok for me to demand you are permanently imprisoned for thinking that way!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Both sides are nothing but a bunch of moronic "my way or the die way" fascists who amazingly enough are in the minority and belong in a museum.

This country has 3 kinds of people in a political sense.

The second smallest group is the sheeple and they identify as either DemoCRIPS or ReBLOODlicans and fail to understand that tho the rhetoric is different the agenda is identical.

The smallest group but growing is the awake/ned (yes some where never anything else so cant be call awakened) and very rarely is an inductee to this group recruited from the sheeple. We don't necessarily agree on rhetoric but we do understand what the FedGov has no business sticking their nose into. Like abortion.

The largest group by leaps and bounds are the zombies. What can I say about them? Most just want to stay in their vegetative state and not do shit till it personally effects them. Fortunately the dictatorship is making many of them stop being zombies, unfortunately more than zero are becoming sheeple.

Q: What is the difference between Romney and Obama?

A: Skin color.

The left do the exact same thing, they are the "lesser evil".

[Vater Araignee]

The left do the exact same thing, they are the "lesser evil".

That came out as Bhaaa.

You do know that there are more than two candidates right?

Did you know there are 5 recognized major political parties and and 36 minor?

You do know that there are at least 150 million eligible candidates don't you?

You do know that with that many choices you can vote your continence?

Did you know that compromising and excepting a piece of shit means all you will ever get is shit?

Obama got 53% of the vote. Only 57% of the population voted in 2008 but only 48% voted federally. So roughly 25% wanted Obama? Wrong because out of his 53% only 30% wanted him, the rest didn't want the other guy because of Bush and they thought it would have gotten worse under McCain.

Would it have gotten worse? YUP YUP!

Did it get worse anyway? YUP YUP!

Will it get better if Obama stays? HELL NO.

Will it get better if The white mormon Obama gets in? HELL NO.

Never mind me I'm still pissed by the news, even though I should be happy because it proves I was right. There is no difference.

[Nymada del Sol]

That came out as Bhaaa.

You do know that there are more than two candidates right?

Did you know there are 5 recognized major political parties and and 36 minor?

You do know that there are at least 150 million eligible candidates don't you?

You do know that with that many choices you can vote your continence?

Did you know that compromising and excepting a piece of shit means all you will ever get is shit?

Obama got 53% of the vote. Only 57% of the population voted in 2008 but only 48% voted federally. So roughly 25% wanted Obama? Wrong because out of his 53% only 30% wanted him, the rest didn't want the other guy because of Bush and they thought it would have gotten worse under McCain.

Would it have gotten worse? YUP YUP!

Did it get worse anyway? YUP YUP!

Will it get better if Obama stays? HELL NO.

Will it get better if The white mormon Obama gets in? HELL NO.

Never mind me I'm still pissed by the news, even though I should be happy because it proves I was right. There is no difference.

I don't like it either. But there are a few successes of the president's that get overlooked. He's helped remove don't ask, don't tell and has made big steps in anti-discrimination legislation.

[0pheliA]

Certainly there are other choices, and certainly the government has no place in abortion issues or marriage issues.

However we have to work with what is presented to us. Whether we like it or not, the realistic choices are between A and B. Spread the word about C-Z, and vote for them when election time comes. However before voting day we need to debate A and B to help those who will only vote one or the other pick the least horrible of the two, and help those who are smarter not vote for them at all. We cannot just pretend they do not exist.

The votes for independents has been growing, which is good. Attacking the Dems and Reps with derogatory actually has the opposite effect that you intend.

As for thought crimes, if you are talking about hate crime legislation then we can have another debate later.

[Vater Araignee]

I don't like it either. But there are a few successes of the president's that get overlooked. He's helped remove don't ask, don't tell and has made big steps in anti-discrimination legislation.

First off, DADT being removed is a failure, sexuality has no place in the military, it is no ones business if someone is straight or gay and left up to me anyone who proclaimed their sexuality wile AD would get a DD. Outside of that I can not see how anything he has done can be construed as anti-discrimination when all he does do is discriminate against the citizens.

But hey if deciding he can spy on, indefinitely detain, torture and kill you, force you to purchase a product you don't want (all unconstitutional violations of your civil rights from the man who campaigned on a civil rights platform) is less important than eliminating discrimination well....

[Vater Araignee]

Certainly there are other choices, and certainly the government has no place in abortion issues or marriage issues.

However we have to work with what is presented to us. Whether we like it or not, the realistic choices are between A and B. Spread the word about C-Z, and vote for them when election time comes. However before voting day we need to debate A and B to help those who will only vote one or the other pick the least horrible of the two, and help those who are smarter not vote for them at all. We cannot just pretend they do not exist.

The votes for independents has been growing, which is good. Attacking the Dems and Reps with derogatory actually has the opposite effect that you intend.

As for thought crimes, if you are talking about hate crime legislation then we can have another debate later.

Choosing between getting raped by A or B is not a realistic choice even if other options are not available.

And insulting close minded fools has the exact effect I intend.

[Nymada del Sol]

Choosing between getting raped by A or B is not a realistic choice even if other options are not available.

And insulting close minded fools has the exact effect I intend.

Who are you referring to as close minded fools?

[0pheliA]

You think removing DADT is a failure?

You are right, it is none of the military's business who is gay. I think you misunderstand DADT. It wasn't about keeping people's lives private, it was a licence to attack and investigate them when that information was made public. It is an example of the name of a bill being the exact opposite of what the bill actually did, in an attempt to mislead.

[Vater Araignee]

Who are you referring to as close minded fools?

Republicrats and Demopublicans.

[Nymada del Sol]

First off, DADT being removed is a failure, sexuality has no place in the military, it is no ones business if someone is straight or gay and left up to me anyone who proclaimed their sexuality wile AD would get a DD. Outside of that I can not see how anything he has done can be construed as anti-discrimination when all he does do is discriminate against the citizens.

But hey if deciding he can spy on, indefinitely detain, torture and kill you, force you to purchase a product you don't want (all unconstitutional violations of your civil rights from the man who campaigned on a civil rights platform) is less important than eliminating discrimination well....

The military poked their noses in military personnel's private lives and outed them. The repeal protects them from such transgressions. I think you misunderstand what the repeal means and what DADT actually did.