general discussion of the apparent police state

[Vater Araignee]

Too much all at once for me to go through line by line. (and a few of which I'm not well versed enough to even do so If i wanted to, and just don't have the energy to research) Not that I don't understand the basics of the constitution. I've read it several times, and have several books about it as well as several documentaries.

From what I understand Obamacare has been veted by by people that know the constitution inside and out and do it for a living full time. Not that I totally agree with the decision(s), but they are very smart, and know far more than I could ever known unless I gave up all my interests and just studied the subject full time. And like any sweeping law, its open for further dispute.

Don't get me wrong I'm not really on board with this quasi-universal healthcare, I just don't think its as black & white as "it violates the constitution" almost EVERYTHING could violate the constitution depending on ones interpretation of "intent". Which gets very complicated very fast.

My reaction usually is just to the "sky is falling" type alarmism, i think the truth is somewhere short of that. Not that I'm not interested, just that If we want to continue discussing such things, some level of calm needs to be injected or no progress is going to be made (and specific talking points that are something short of novels, which I personally tend to type too much myself).

It isn't that they sky is falling, it's that the snowball is growing exponentially.

If I where to document the growth of the police state starting at 1910 till now...

1910-1949 would be a pamphlet.

50's, 60's, 70's and 80's would be a book with each chapter being larger than the last.

The 90's would be a book.

2000 - 2008 would be just shy of an encyclopedia.

and 2008 to now is spilling off the book case.

[Slogo]

5 pathetic groups that people think rule the world Edited June 30, 2012 by Slogo

[Vater Araignee]

5 pathetic groups that people think rule the world

The existence of conspiracy theory's doesn't invalided the fact that this country is being incrementalized towards a police state.

It doesn't matter if it is happening because of some grand plan of living skeletons and their fat hideous descendants or because its purely accidental, it is happening.

Making light of it only helps it come to fruition.

[Golden Trident]

If I may enlighten those that arent familiar with Obamacare...when first proposed...it was vetoed simply because it was argued that the federal government doesn't have the power to impose or regulate healthcare....so Obama argued that they DO have the right because if your insurance co. Is in another state...it is considered interstate trade. Once again the legality was challenged..this time on the grounds that the government doesn't have the right to impose fines on citizens for NOT being compliant with a mandate.....this issue was put before the supreme court...who on turn deemed it unConstitutional....however...would reconsider if it were called a tax and not a fine! Now that said....the preservation of the Constitution is my only agenda here...no politicians nor parties are being advocated by me. But think about it.....the government can now "persuade" you to comply with their wishes simply by TAXING us now....in essence...completely side stepping the Constitution and rendering it useless!!!!

[LadyKay]

.the government can now "persuade" you to comply with their wishes simply by TAXING us now....in essence...completely side stepping the Constitution and rendering it useless!!!!

Interesting. So just how far can this thing go? Say the government says you are overweight you will have to pay a "fat tax". Or if you don't buy a car that gets 40mpg you will be taxed. This could really get out of control if we let it. And we do. Little by little things happen and we just say oh well. And keep voting the same out of touch people back into office.

RON PAUL PEOPLE!!!!!

Edited July 17, 2012 by LadyKay

[SaGa]

this is on the books. army field manuals. northcom also has the many operations that are made public about domestic military use in the united states. and if katrina did not wake people up. the next big thing will.

anyways

look up HR 347(creation of free speech zones, outside of which is now illegal during major events)

NDAA Section 1021 and 1022 (military detention on accusation alone including US citizens

NDRP executive order gives powers to homeland security and many other agencies and extends goverment powers of suizer beyond what it was before the executive order. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/03/16/executive-order-national-defense-resources-preparedness

this is just a taste of the many other violations. but these are the big daddies that come to mind that no one can deny.

and i do think a new post about the U.N small arms trade treaty should be posted. heres something completely absurd about this one http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/07/09/Breaking-News-Iran-Gets-to-Decide-If-2nd-Amendment-Still-Viable

[SaGa]

a speech obama gave. in which he says he upholds the constitution. but will hold people in detention. for possible Future crime. and a threat to national security, even if they cant be tried for any supposed past crimes, due to lack of evidence(or what hes says tainted evidence) also he has no problem being a hypocrite on record. all in the same few minute speech...amazing

disclaimer, yes i know its foxnews. first one i could find of the video. i dont watch fox, or msnbc or whatever big media outlet.

Edited July 17, 2012 by SaGa

[SaGa]

5 pathetic groups that people think rule the world

i think david icke is retarded. and the illuminati and all its symbolism just looks fucking goth as hell. as for the other 3. its a way of rich guys to talk yes. and find out there idiological counterparts. that alone scares people. this article is basicly bashing people who are suspicious. even thou we should be suspicious when our heads of states attend such meetings illegaly

[Simon Bar Sinister]

But think about it.....the government can now "persuade" you to comply with their wishes simply by TAXING us now....in essence...completely side stepping the Constitution and rendering it useless!!!!

Sidestepping the Constitution? Really? That's ALWAYS been in Congress' ability to do. Section 8 of the Constitution says so in its first line. I had to pay for an illegal war they (along with the last Administration) wished to conduct in Iraq.

...and you said it was vetoed. When did Obama veto Obamacare?

[Golden Trident]

Obama didn't veto it ...i was being hasty and didn't offer proper language...it was deemed unlawful and therefore not even allowed to be put in front of congress until the proper "angle" or wording was used! Look up Chief Justice Roberts comments and the supreme courts latest ruling.

[Golden Trident]

So far today I have read several well voiced complaints about different topics that are all valid.....my problem is that we tend to focus on our own personal beefs or our "groups" personal beef and that only limits our power. Not until we break down the walls and issues that divide us.....can WE THE PEOPLE.....truly enjoy the freedoms that were meant for us. And BTW......regarding the use of US soldiers to police it's citizens...FYI....under the patriot act....that duty was given to UN soldiers should the need arise. Probably a direct result of the psychological tests that were given to US TROOPS in 1997 that was used to determine if our soldiers would fire on its citizens if given the order! YOU do the math!

[Golden Trident]

Merriam Webster’s dictionary defines liberty as,

1: the quality or state of being free: a: the power to do as one pleases b: freedom from physical restraint c: freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d: the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges e: the power of choice.

With all the laws our government has passed that restrict our actions, which if you bothered to look, they weren’t authorized to pass, how can anyone honestly say that they are truly free?

[Golden Trident]

If people really want to know what their government is authorized to do, I recommend they find a copy of the Constitution and read Article 1, Section 8. There they will find the specifically enumerated powers that Jefferson spoke of.

If people took the time to educate themselves concerning the powers we have given to our government they would realize that they have been abusing the trust we have placed in them for quite a long time. Those whom we elect to represent us do not measure up to the quality of character of George Washington, who said, “The Constitution is the guide which I never will abandon.â€

When people continue to be fooled by the promises of those seeking office, when they continue to allow those whom they elect to ignore the constraints the Constitution has put upon them, the people will be in constant danger of losing that which our government was created to protect, their liberty.

Thomas Jefferson said it best, “A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.â€

Ben Franklin once told us that “The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself.†It is not the job of the government to provide you with all these benefits those seeking office promise you. Along with each benefit comes a price, and the price may be something you aren’t willing to pay when the bill comes due. At that time it may be wise to remember what Jefferson said about protecting your liberties, “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.â€

I would think that the American people would much prefer to hold their elected officials accountable to their oaths of office to uphold the Constitution, than to face the alternative of having to once again fight for their liberties.

[SaGa]

So far today I have read several well voiced complaints about different topics that are all valid.....my problem is that we tend to focus on our own personal beefs or our "groups" personal beef and that only limits our power. Not until we break down the walls and issues that divide us.....can WE THE PEOPLE.....truly enjoy the freedoms that were meant for us. And BTW......regarding the use of US soldiers to police it's citizens...FYI....under the patriot act....that duty was given to UN soldiers should the need arise. Probably a direct result of the psychological tests that were given to US TROOPS in 1997 that was used to determine if our soldiers would fire on its citizens if given the order! YOU do the math!

theres a lot of issues, in that our troops are pseudo u.n troops. but the need has arisen according to the goverment. to the administration and the military, they can create the need whenever they want

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I'm not sure anyone would make an argument that we need more government, but in actual practice most people don't really want to "do it for themselves" , they expect the government to do it (whatever "it" happens to be), and for this to happen the government grows.

Not that I LIKE that, its just what happens over time. How to reverse this psychology? Good luck. My first suggestion would somehow get people to stop spending so much time sucking down pure entertainment and get involved in reality, or at least thinking about reality, of any sort, that would be the first job. Joe-blow is so immersed in the sensory deprivation tank known as the entertainment industry that first you have to get people to pay attention to something other than mickey mouse.

I try to be careful quoting the constitution and trying to map it line by line onto current modern day reality. It was a compromise document before the ink was dry, and was never meant to be set in stone, was written with lots of vague language intentionally, the society it was designed for is very different than the one we live in, even if it was declared perfect by all involved 200+ years ago and all the founding fathers from A to W had problems with one aspect or another of it.

The constitution has ceded power to be interpreted and expanded to its outgrowths, and it is not a crystal clear document (by design or it would never have been ratified), not even close, and is open to tons of interpretation. What the combination of the three branches say that it means, is what it means. Not that this is good, or a solution, just pointing out a big pitfall in reasoning things out by quoting the source material alone.