The music industry sucks

[Vater Araignee]

everywhere i know of. i listed a quite a few places in a post above. I mentioned that i too have CDs for the car and many reasons why i still find vinyl better.        -monitors?

okay, so you've got a total of 1. want me to list how many records i have from the 1960's that still play flawlessly?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unlike a hi-fi speaker, which is designed, hopefully, to make all audio material sound pleasing to the ear, the monitor has as it's main objective to paint an accurate audio image of the material, with no unnatural emphasis or de-emphasis of particular frequencies. An amazing side effect is that the monitor allows you to hear subtle nuances like an unused guitars resonating in time with a drum kit being played in the same room. Not that you'd necessarily want to hear that, but some times it's cool like listening to Jeff Beks Guitar Shop exactly like he intended it to sound.

That's just the oldest I have, not the only pre90's. Conservative estimates state that if properly taken care of that cd will still play in 2050 long after I'm dead.

Now lets say I do live that long and consider that I do listen to that album about twice a week and lets say I didn't start listening until 90 just to give us a round year. That would mean I've listened to it about 1482 times and will listen about 3562 by 2050 that would mean I listened to it 5044 times. Unless you have a few grand to spend you will destroy vinyl. Now I'm not completely knocking vinyl. It is great for long term storage I have stuff on 78 with cork centers older than my father. But I bought a unopened vintage release of Billy Idol's Don't Stop pressed in 81. Yes I'm a junky and opened it wile it has zero pops there is still the vinyl tell tail called the hiss. Most people either do not hear it or simple does not register that they are hearing it, but I do. Oh yea the hiss is even more audible on a monitor.

[Paper Hearts]

I don't think it costs a whole lot to maintain vinyl but i suppose that cost is relative but i will say that in my poorest years i bought vinyl and that it's still around and nice today. On the whole, would you agree that you'll find far more 80's records around than CD's, If you take records and CDs from an equal amount of years each, even though the records were more the staple of the earlier part of the decade? Vinyl does have a frequency range greater than a CD, there are things I can hear listening to my albums that do not seem to be audible at all on my CDs (if i have a copy in both formats).

But anyway, these monitors, can't you get a similar effect out of a record (if you wanted) with an EQ? What's more, sometimes the way an album sounds or is produced is art in itself, certain things are made to be dominant over others on purpose. Why not accept, say, how Mick Jones produced an album or Phil Spectre?

If you'r 80's CDs are still useful in 2050, cool, but I've seen 50, 60 year old vinyl at the store in very good condition, used for under $30. Try CarCity.

[Rozzlyn]

Oh yeah. That's another reason why i like buying albums: they're big! Yes, they still do all sorts of cool  things. -And today, record players and records themselves are even better quality than they used to be (not to mention speakers and amps), most often. Let's see, by you, try Record Time on northbound Gratiot just a bit north of 11 mile or maybe even CarCity records on the east side of Harper, between 8 and 9 mile roads-both of these places sell new and used records. There's a few more places on the west side: Repeat the Beat, Neptune records, Record Time ferndale, also, a place in Hamtramck-Hamtramck records and a few places in the city of Detroit.

You can get new needles and that at some of these record stores or at DJ stores or Guitar Center.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, right now, the quality of the vinyl is actually on-par to the quality of vinyl in the early-mid 1960s and earlier.

In the late 1970s and all through the 1980s, the quality of vinyl LPs was really shoddy because recycled vinyl became the standard -- and recycled vinyl is more fragile than "virgin" vinyl, which was standard in the 1960s and earlier and is again the current standard for record albums.

Of course, that's not to say that you shouldn't take good care of your vinyl OR your CDs, that should be a given -- I mean, the better you care for *anything*, the longer it lasts, right?

[Paper Hearts]

Well, right now, the quality of the vinyl is actually on-par to the quality of vinyl in the early-mid 1960s and earlier.

In the late 1970s and all through the 1980s, the quality of vinyl LPs was really shoddy because recycled vinyl became the standard -- and recycled vinyl is more fragile than "virgin" vinyl, which was standard in the 1960s and earlier and is again the current standard for record albums.

Of course, that's not to say that you shouldn't take good care of your vinyl OR your CDs, that should be a given -- I mean, the better you care for *anything*, the longer it lasts, right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, but as i stated in my last post (just another point), if you search for CDs and records from an equal amount of years from the 1980's, even though vinyl may have been shoddier then and even though vinyl was the staple for music in the earlier part of the decade, you will find more vinyl in better condition and it's not as if people simply stopped caring for their music once CDs came out.

[Rozzlyn]

okay, so you've got a total of 1. want me to list how many records i have from the 1960's that still play flawlessly?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've got several of those as well. Even a monoraul first edition copy of the Doors, looks terrible, but plays really well (but I got it for a dollar -- so I'm hardly complaining). I've got other really beautiful ones from the 1960s -- both look and play supurbly. the Who Sings My Generation (first edition), December's Children by the Rolling Stones, Bob Dylan's first album (and that one belonged to my hippie mother, even).

[Paper Hearts]

I've got several of those as well.  Even a monoraul first edition copy of the Doors, looks terrible, but plays really well (but I got it for a dollar -- so I'm hardly complaining).  I've got other really beautiful ones from the 1960s -- both look and play supurbly.  the Who Sings My Generation (first edition), December's Children by the Rolling Stones, Bob Dylan's first album (and that one belonged to my hippie mother, even).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure, and it's everywhere from thrift stores to garage sales to shops like CarCity where collectors from England or Japan pay thousands buying up an entire section of old R&B or Jazz recordings. I just bought a brand new album, 2 maxi-singles and a Peel Sessions recording all on vinyl, for under $25, all brand-spankin'.

[Rozzlyn]

Yes, but as i stated in my last post (just another point), if you search for CDs and records from an equal amount of years from the 1980's, even though vinyl may have been shoddier then and even though vinyl was the staple for music in the earlier part of the decade, you will find more vinyl in better condition and it's not as if people simply stopped caring for their music once CDs came out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, I agree (never said I didn't ). Of course, when CDs first came out (1982, I believe), they were marketed as virtually indestructable which was eventually good for selling the medium, but in the end, really hurt its re-sale value because people <i>would</i> abuse the medium. CDs would get scuffed and, while play nicely, they'd look terrible. And the technology at the time was still virginal. Even now, digital sound can't hold a candle to analogue, but in the 1980s, it was even bigger crap than now -- and audiophiles know this. The only thing CDs ever really had going for them was portability and, for a while, "virtual indestructability."

Aside from all this:

I just replaced the stylus for my record player (first replacement since I was fifteen -- I'm not proud of that, but even with that, I simply replaced the stylus because it was so old and it's always best to replace them every one to two years, to prevent damaging one's LPs from a dull tip). I got it at Radio Shack -- but they order it for you from the store and have it shipped UPS. :grin I'm happy. Only $6.35 with FREE delivery -- and the last time I replaced it, a new stylus cost me $15.

[Paper Hearts]

I knew you weren't arguing, i just thought your point should be added to the point i was making in my post before.

that's all i get out of CDs, as well: portability.

it's really not so bad maintaing a record system or records. On the other hand, just about every CD I've bought more than a few years ago basically needs to be replaced and I've gone through several CD players-i mean there's a few CDs i have that are still good, but the number doesn't compare to the amount of records i have from that same time-frame and what's more, the sound of music from vinyl compared digital is like heaven and hell.

[Rozzlyn]

I knew you weren't arguing, i just thought your point should be added to the point i was making in my post before.

that's all i get out of CDs, as well: portability.

it's really not so bad maintaing a record system or records. On the other hand, just about every CD I've bought more than a few years ago basically needs to be replaced and I've gone through several CD players-i mean there's a few CDs i have that are still good, but the number doesn't compare to the amount of records i have from that same time-frame and what's more, the sound of music from vinyl compared digital is like heaven and hell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, gawd! CD-players!

I don't abuse my equipment at ALL. I grew up with English grandparents who were very influentual and knew the value of things and the prices paid for them. I got my frist CD-player in 1995 and, while I still have my first CD (which was actually a hand-me-down from my brother-in-law of a 1986 pressing of Christian Death's Ashes), the player was dead in 1999 -- the lasers somehow got misaligned during the move out of my father's house, and it was just too expensive to get it repaired.

Edited to Add

Keep in mind, my first CD-player was a component to attach to my stereo/record player. It was a nice brand, too -- RCA -- and held three discs. I don't expect protables to last long at all. They're made cheaply enough that they can be sold cheap and with that, people don't have problems with paying for a new one. The one I currently have hooked up to the stereo was bought used, and I'd be surprised if it *wasn't* on its last legs.

(/edit)

My first "discman" styled player actually got stolen out of the car outside Shitty Club/Labyrinth (and on my birthday, of all times!), so that doesn't count, but my current one I'm being stubborn about. The cat knocked it off the coffeetable -- an 18" drop, at the MOST -- and the spring for the hinge on the trap went flying off. I can still take the trap on and off, but damnit, I've only had this thing for two years! :blink It's too young to get broken!

[Rozzlyn]

Oh, gawd!  CD-players!

I don't abuse my equipment at ALL.  I grew up with English grandparents who were very influentual and knew the value of things and the prices paid for them.  I got my frist CD-player in 1995 and, while I still have my first CD (which was actually a hand-me-down from my brother-in-law of a 1986 pressing of Christian Death's Ashes), the player was dead in 1999 -- the lasers somehow got misaligned during the move out of my father's house, and it was just too expensive to get it repaired.

My first "discman" styled player actually got stolen out of the car outside Shitty Club/Labyrinth (and on my birthday, of all times!), so that doesn't count, but my current one I'm being stubborn about.  The cat knocked it off the coffeetable -- an 18" drop, at the MOST -- and the spring for the hinge on the trap went flying off.  I can still take the trap on and off, but damnit, I've only had this thing for two years!  :blink  It's too young to get broken! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oops...

...but yeah, in comparison, I've had the same record player since 1987 -- when my eldest sister gave it to me after she married the exchange student and moved to London. That's nearly twenty years and it still works like a peach. Only "issues" it has right now are cosmetic.

[Scary Guy]

Heh, yeah one of the reasons I want a Technics (well a couple Technics) SL 1210's. They'll last for a good god damn long time before they die out on me.

Also as far as CDs go they're on the way to being phazed out by DVDs for sound (finally).

As far as how long they last vs. record, no contest. They now have CDs that you can bend almost completely and they won't break (might even be able to go all the way). On top of that there is now a coating put on (or you can buy nifty covers that the laser will read through) where the CD CANNOT be scratched. You really have to be trying to make any damage to it.

[Vater Araignee]

I don't think it costs a whole lot to maintain vinyl but i suppose that cost is relative but i will say that in my poorest years i bought vinyl and that it's still around and nice today.

What I meant was after X amount of plays the sound quality of vinyl will degrade unless you have a few grand to spend on a laser phonograph

On the whole, would you agree that you'll find far more 80's records around than CD's, If you take records and CDs from an equal amount of years each, even though the records were more the staple of the earlier part of the decade?

Yes for these reasons

1. Portability, the more it travels the more it will be abused

2. Dominant society looks at almost every thing like it is disposable

Vinyl does have a frequency range greater than a CD, there are things I can hear listening to my albums that do not seem to be audible at all on my CDs (if i have a copy in both formats).

I have a copy of cyber punk on cd and vinyl. Now depending on what equipment I'm using you are correct. Because of the age of photographic tech it is much cheaper to produce a hi quality one. Say you spend $400.00 on a vibration resistant flat sound turntable (no pre amp or amp or eq just a turntable) Then expect to pay $550.00 or more for a cd deck of the same quality.

quality experiment:

You will need:

2 CD ROM drives of differing ages preferably different brands

1 analog sound cable

one computer power supply

solder

soldering iron or as I prefer Cold Heat soldering tool

electrical tape

Some Knowledge in audio splicing

a connector to splice onto the analog cable appropriate for your home sound system (1/8 1/4 RCA)

an audio CD

1. Solder your cables together and isolate the connections with tape.

2. Connect both CD roms to the power supply.

3. Connect your new cable to your sound system.

4. Connect your new cable to drive A

5. Plug in the power supply. turn it on and listen to a cd.

6. unplug power supply

7. follow steps 4 & 5 with drive B.

Notice a difference in sound quality?

But anyway, these monitors, can't you get a similar effect out of a record (if you wanted) with an EQ? What's more, sometimes the way an album sounds or is produced is art in itself, certain things are made to be dominant over others on purpose. Why not accept, say, how Mick Jones produced an album or Phil Spectre?

If you're 80's CDs are still useful in 2050, cool, but I've seen 50, 60 year old vinyl at the store in very good condition, used for under $30. Try CarCity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not with Hi fidelity speakers you can't. Truth be told the art of studio engineering is having it sound good on as many different systems as possible but the only way to hear what they hear in a studio is to have the exact same set up as they recorded on. Not really practical but with a good flat setup you can come close I.E. center your GEQ make sure your amp adds zero flavor get a decent set of flat speakers A.K.A. monitors. I recommend StudioPro 4 if you have a tight budget for somebody that wants to shell out $200.00 for speakers. The only problem I have with them is the low end response is not where I'd like it to be, but it beats the hell out of $45.00 an hour.

[soothsayer]

You really have to be trying to make any damage to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is so true, one time I took a cd that I didn't care for and scratched the life out of it with a razor blade, it still played perfectly. With records you couldn't do that. I love records for other reasons but durability is not something they offer. I have bought too many records that would already skip on the first play. As for quality, my ears have only known standard turn tables so a cd has always sounded better and for portability, what are you gonna do lug around a record collection? Or record your records onto....what, a cassette? Until they perfect something new and it's affordable I'm going with cd's because it's cheap and goes where I wanna go.

[Vater Araignee]

Until they perfect something new and it's affordable I'm going with cd's because it's cheap and goes where I wanna go.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

get a lyra mp3 player they start at about $40.00 for one with 32mb. It uses SD and MMC. You can get 32mb sd cards at Wal-mart for $12.27.

64mb $14.84

128mb $14.88

256mb $24.84

512mb $42.84

1gb $85.84 do you know how many albums you can fit on that at 128kbps?

[Rozzlyn]

This is so true, one time I took a cd that I didn't care for and scratched the life out of it with a razor blade, it still played perfectly. With records you couldn't do that. I love records for other reasons but durability is not something they offer. I have bought too many records that would already skip on the first play. As for quality, my ears have only known standard turn tables so a cd has always sounded better and for portability, what are you gonna do lug around a record collection? Or record your records onto....what, a cassette? Until they perfect something new and it's affordable I'm going with cd's because it's cheap and goes where I wanna go.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you bought those records new, there's a chance that either your turntable is off-balance or your stylus (needle) is in need of replacement. Also, I urge everybody who buys and plays record albums to NEVER use anything less than a sapphire-tipped stylus -- I prefer these to diamond cos they're the tiniest bit softer and do less damage. Unfortunately, I've found sapphire-tipped replacements for my turntable near-inpossible to find.

I've been looking at that laser-stylus record player that Scary Guy linked to. It promises to play in analogue, but I'm waiting to look at more literature on those before I consider saving up to get one. They look wonderful, though, looking at the site. Now all I need is to get me a sugar-daddy.....

[Scary Guy]

soothsayer, I don't mean taking a razor blade to a normal cd. I mean taking it to a cd with this coating on it, you WILL NOT SCRATCH the CD, no marks, nothing.

do you know how many albums you can fit on that at 128kbps?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OMG you did not just say that. I know depending on the average size... a lot. I could do that, but I wouldn't enjoy it. I'd rather save them at 320. 128 is tolerable but if you try to play a file of that quality at the club it usually 9/10 times sounds like ass.

On the DJ forums I'm on some use 256 (in theory 128 per audio channel), most use 192, and all won't even considder using anything below 160.

[Vater Araignee]

OMG you did not just say that.  I know depending on the average size...  a lot.  I could do that, but I wouldn't enjoy it.  I'd rather save them at 320.  128 is tolerable but if you try to play a file of that quality at the club it usually 9/10 times sounds like ass.

On the DJ forums I'm on some use 256 (in theory 128 per audio channel), most use 192, and all won't even considder using anything below 160.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah yes this is true But I'm not talking using it for club usage, that's closer to studio setups than your average home or car system which don't sound better past 192 and if you are going to use headphones then 80 is the best you'll need unless you are spending good cho on them, in which case you probably own an I-wastedahugechunkofcashpod.

[Scary Guy]

Well my headphones were $150.00 at DJ supply.

HDJ-1000's

mmmmm

They sound better than the club system.

[Vater Araignee]

Well my headphones were $150.00 at DJ supply.

HDJ-1000's

mmmmm

They sound better than the club system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ok higher bit rate to you may I sugest VBR at 80%

[Reaper]

I just buy the CD, rip it, copy it onto another CD and play it. The original gets put back into the jewel case into the library. If the harddrive gets fucked, no big deal, I have the original still. It takes less than 5 minutes to rip a full album and another 5 to burn it.

Vinyls? How the hell do you play that in a car? I still don't see many places in-store that sell vinyl. I left those when tapes came out and I copied the vinyl onto tape. Also you can usually get all the album info on the CD as the vinyl. Companies decide whether to include it on the album or not. If not, they didn't want to spend much more on the album.

I learned a lesson about buying CDs and re-purchasing them when one got scratched or wore too much, esp when the CDs were rare or hard to get even online (thank the dark gods for e-bay).

Thats my two common sense on the subject. My advise if you have a PC, rip the music and burn a copy. I have many originals that somehow were corroded, I believe by the type of CD case I have. Looks like someone rubbed a scouring pad on them or set a flame under them.

P.S. What ever happened to those CD cases that you clicked the CD into like the jewel cases? I need to invent a case utilizing those DVD devices.

Reaper

Welcome to Hell.

[Paper Hearts]

There weren't many cars made with record players, you're right about that-I too have CDs for my car. I like Vinyl because it sounds a bit better, there is nothing more heavenly than Depeche Mode or Smiths on a record player, it's awe inspiring to just lye on the floor and let it wash over you. All that shit aside, there are quite a few stores around that sell new and used records, i listed a few for someone else, somewhere above. Oh, and i love my records and wouldn't give them up for anything.

[Scary Guy]

ok higher bit rate to you may I sugest VBR at 80%

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:grin

[pomba gira]

This is why i buy vinyl-

1. less expensive (about $7 less, on average, if purchased new)

2. more durable (and maintaining an album is much easier)

3. better sound quality (records have a greater frequency

    range than compact discs)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't like vinyl even before CDs came on the market... I used to put everything on cassette. Vinyl was much more vulnerable at wild drunken parties... which I gave a lot of back then. I thought CDs were the grooviest thing since sliced bread.

What irks me is that CDs still cost the same as when they first came out... now that's ridiculous. What other consumer item can you think of, where the price hasn't come down in almost 20 years? They are definitely more shoddily made now, too... they didn't scratch anywhere near as easy back in the late '80s.

[Scary Guy]

Well they were made better back then, construction was more solid, more well balanced, well rounded. If you feel the edge of a CD now compared to one in the late 80's it's square like it's been stamped out, those int he past were actually round. I think they were also just a tad bit heavier too.

Also the record industry got sued for price fixing, I think someone should make a new class action lawsuit. Though I guess I can kind of understand it since production costs keep going up, still BS though.

[Paper Hearts]

I didn't like vinyl even before CDs came on the market... I used to put everything on cassette.  Vinyl was much more vulnerable at wild drunken parties... which I gave a lot of back then.  I thought CDs were the grooviest thing since sliced bread.

What irks me is that CDs still cost the same as when they first came out... now that's ridiculous. What other consumer item can you think of, where the price hasn't come down in almost 20 years?  They are definitely more shoddily made now, too... they didn't scratch anywhere near as easy back in the late '80s.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, i suppose i just dig records. That's all I'll say.