Chaos Theory

[kat (1)]

So do you believe in the butterfly effect? Do you ever get that feeling that one, simple thing you did in life, like left for work at 7:15 rather than 7:20 can cause a significant change in the world, in you're life that had a huge impact on you're path, or purpose? Like, do you ever wonder if you would not have met a certain person and had a certain argument than end up like crashing your car the next day, I give this example because I ponder had I never got in a situation would things be different tonight, right now.. Would I be off work, would my coworker have cancer, do you believe, as Andy Andrews quote, "Every single thing you do matters. You have been created as one of a kind. You have within you the power to change the world"

I mean, it is a hell of a lot to swallow, right? I guess that's why we call it Chaos Theory. 

Thoughts? 

Do you wonder what if you missed the greatest opportunity in life because you choose to wear the black shirt on Sunday or because you hit the snooze button too many times. 

Is it weird that I been contemplating this since before I was able to cross the street alone? 

I mean I didn't even know it was a thing that existed I just attributed to me being a little weirdo. Lol

Edited March 5, 2016 by kat

[phee]

I believe in chaos theory in the sense that the universe is full of chaos and doesn't really give a flying f*** about anyone as an individual. 

 

 

[Vater Araignee]

42 minutes ago, phee said:

I believe in chaos theory in the sense that the universe is full of chaos and doesn't really give a flying f*** about anyone as an individual. 

Phee recognizes My Great Lady.

Figure out how to make the sun go nova when it shouldn't, she wont notice you. Figure out how to cause a galaxy swallowing singularity, she wont notice you. Sterilize the universe, and you still go unnoticed.

On a universal scale.

But do I believe that say If I had just taken my favorite bunny Buttercup to the vet one more time then I could have had more than 2 years with her? No. Nothing I could have done would have changed the outcome except doing something that would have ended in her lose earlier and even still it would not have mattered because what happened, happened. The butterfly effect only happens going forward meaning it is pointless dwelling on could haves. Unless you wish to end up immobilizing yourself. You cant know that yesterdays in hindsight wrong decision to be early wont be tomorrows correct one. You can only hold on to your macro morals and not worry if your micro morals going to cause a drought killing millions.

The best question set I have seen to counter where this can lead you is "Do you want to feel guilty because you could have prevented a bus lead of kids from losing their lives by sacrificing your own? What if one or more of those kids where the next Hitler? What if it turns out you are why the universal cure for cancer is discovered?"

[sekhmet2002]

I believe in the chaos theory. I think some things have a big impact on what happens elsewhere. However, I agree with Vater that there is no use in worrying about what might have been had you taken a wrong turn somewhere or the like.

[Neo]

Agreed!

[Troy Spiral (13)]

When I was like 19 I read a few read books on chaos as in, mathematical  and physical chaos as a science.   (Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park was a Chaotician that is a branch of mathematics)

The take away from that is that things will , once the very initial conditions are set, look VERY similar at any reasonably large scale.   An real world example on the grandest scale possible is looking down at a galaxy  looks very similar to looking down at large groups of galaxies, and then back away farther and galaxy clusters have a similar look, but it does not hold strictly true.

 

I used to be a big believer in the Butterfly Effect   (Ray Bradbury taught me... bastard why'd he have to die).   But more recently various scientists describe time / events as more like a wide river.

 

Things we do  like say throwing a large rock into that river would change the immediate flow / look  of things but "on average" things would continue on the same way as they always had.   The idea being that to change "the course of history" would take something cataclysmic, not something small.  I think we WANT it to be true that small things make huge changes, but I think that might be (trying to be self-aware and honest) wishful thinking or ego.

 

Even a supernova explosion (possibly the most awe inspiriting things that happen since the big bang)  does not change the course of the universe as a whole, only locally, at least as far as we can tell. 

 

Having said that in our little personal lives, small things can  have what we would think of as huge changes in the longer term (our lifespan being a joke, but to us it seems huge) so in this sense I think the butterfly effect is true.  It just doesn't hold true on larger scales. 

Then you can go into every single "decision" (by humans or not) that gets made creates a totally alternate timeline, which seems to be a a plausible reality.  That is there are nearly infinite timelines all going on at once every time we (or anyone) changes anything, which starts to hurt your brain. So if THIS is true, this leads us back to maybe the butterfly effect is a real thing, just totally different than what it was originally thought of as. 

 

It's all interesting stuff.  Just a lot to it.  

 

 

[Scary Guy]

See, I don't like the term "chaos theory" because there is nothing chaotic about it (and "domino theory" has a better ring to it.  Although if there is a difference between the two I admittedly don't know what that is.) I'm a determinist in that I think we only have one course of action, free will is an illusion, and everything is tied together.  it's a bit sad to think we have no free will at first but you get used to it.  Yes we have the illusion of choice but we don't really HAVE choice.  Our choices are shaped by our life experiences and environmental circumstances at that moment of choice.

Even when you say "oh well that's not true, I'll do the opposite of what I'd do just to prove you wrong" well you are only doing it to try to prove me wrong because I'm a dick and you want to prove me wrong.  That isn't you changing your mind because you want to that's you changing your mind to prove me wrong because I'm a dick.

I think if you had a computer that could simulate every aspect of the universe you could predict everyone's actions.

[Vater Araignee]

7 hours ago, Scary Guy said:

See, I don't like the term "chaos theory" because there is nothing chaotic about it (and "domino theory" has a better ring to it.  Although if there is a difference between the two I admittedly don't know what that is.) I'm a determinist in that I think we only have one course of action, free will is an illusion, and everything is tied together.  it's a bit sad to think we have no free will at first but you get used to it.  Yes we have the illusion of choice but we don't really HAVE choice.  Our choices are shaped by our life experiences and environmental circumstances at that moment of choice.

Even when you say "oh well that's not true, I'll do the opposite of what I'd do just to prove you wrong" well you are only doing it to try to prove me wrong because I'm a dick and you want to prove me wrong.  That isn't you changing your mind because you want to that's you changing your mind to prove me wrong because I'm a dick.

I think if you had a computer that could simulate every aspect of the universe you could predict everyone's actions.

circulus in demonstrando is circular.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Vater Araignee

[RosyBlue]

I think pretty much the same as Troy on this. The things you do only have an effect locally (meaning in relation to the people you know and possibly the people they know) unless it's something major. You will have an impact on people, but not on the universe. As long as you do your best not to harm people, you can't dwell on it. You don't know how the small things you do in your day will impact other people and if you worry about it, you're just going to drive yourself nuts.

It's a great big universe, and we're all really puny.

 

[Troy Spiral (13)]

On 4/12/2016 at 1:13 AM, Scary Guy said:

See, I don't like the term "chaos theory" because there is nothing chaotic about it (and "domino theory" has a better ring to it.  Although if there is a difference between the two I admittedly don't know what that is.) I'm a determinist in that I think we only have one course of action, free will is an illusion, and everything is tied together.  it's a bit sad to think we have no free will at first but you get used to it.  Yes we have the illusion of choice but we don't really HAVE choice.  Our choices are shaped by our life experiences and environmental circumstances at that moment of choice.

Even when you say "oh well that's not true, I'll do the opposite of what I'd do just to prove you wrong" well you are only doing it to try to prove me wrong because I'm a dick and you want to prove me wrong.  That isn't you changing your mind because you want to that's you changing your mind to prove me wrong because I'm a dick.

I think if you had a computer that could simulate every aspect of the universe you could predict everyone's actions.

 

19 hours ago, Vater Araignee said:

circulus in demonstrando is circular.

I think the problem was the topic post mixed Chaos and Butterfly Effect together which are different ideas.  One is based on initial conditions of a system or small changes to it, (Chaos) the other is based more on small changes in an already existing system.

Chaos should probably be called "Managed" or "Semi Organized" Chaos to be more clear.  But its just not called that.  Still is the same set of subjects despite terminology. 

The Butterfly Effect might be better called "The domino effect" but it's not.   Still means what it means. 

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Interesting set of questions, despite my digression. 

[Troy Spiral (13)]

1 hour ago, RosyBlue said:

I think pretty much the same as Troy on this. The things you do only have an effect locally (meaning in relation to the people you know and possibly the people they know) unless it's something major. You will have an impact on people, but not on the universe. As long as you do your best not to harm people, you can't dwell on it. You don't know how the small things you do in your day will impact other people and if you worry about it, you're just going to drive yourself nuts.

It's a great big universe, and we're all really puny.

 

I based my life on the Animaniacs teachings.  WTF.