The everlasting debate over goth

[Mari Augdahl Bes Bes]

IDK why I beat myself over this issue, but theres that ever lasting conversation about Where does certain styles of music fit into the goth subculture. It seems to me like a lot outside influences, like industrial or metal has become part of the scene even though they are not actually goth in its origin. 

 

I personally do not have a problem with it, but Ive noticed that other people seems to see it as an issue. For me, its like, if this music has kept the scene alive, than why care what kind of umbrella it falls under. Yet, its not that I would proclaim industrial music or gothic metal as goth. 

Yet, I wouldnt do the same thing in regards to a lot of so- called early goth rock bands, either. I think a lot of them were labelled goth wo them self identifying as gothic rock. 

 

So I Just identify them as 'music popular to and within the goth scene'. Given the debate, imo, is complex. 

 

[TronRP]

I find it interesting that I never gave music a specific genre labeling and just listened to whatever sounded good.  Then once someone told me I was "goth" I found that the music I used to listen to for the sake of listening to it, came under a lot of scrutiny.  I'm still confused about it all, so, if it's not considered "Mainstream", I just label everything I listen to as under "Alternative".

😅

[kat (1)]

💯‼️🤘⬆️This

Labels are for boxes and annoying tee shirts that make you rip them out anyway. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by kat

[kat (1)]

And here's something amazing for the ears this morning! 

https://youtu.be/RYPWxymohWs

[Scary Guy]

Oh boy, this topic again.  Sorry I'm late.  Here is my mostly consistent definition.

Okay, so to define Goth music you have to define what Goth is.  Goth and Gothic seem to be two different things.  Gothic is all things that are formal Goth and is a part of Goth.  However just because something is Goth does not mean it's Gothic.  Goth is an umbrella term for anything darker in nature.  If you can appreciate the beauty in wilted flowers then you can understand it at least in some part.  It also tends to involve a fair bit of depression and mental issues as well.  Gothic is pretty much just VIctorian/Edwardian aesthetics and elitism toward others for "not being goth enough."  Some of the most Gothic bands ever claim to not be Gothic as well.

 

The goth scene incorporates a bunch of outcasts from different walks of life and is the only true "alternative" scene IMO.  Many goth nights have popped up in LGBT clubs back before LGBT was a term, and they still continue to do so.  Same with some of the fetish clubs.  Groups of people who would accept those that were unaccepted and outcasts.  If you didn't feel you belonged you could belong there.  Not that it was always a safe haven, you still had to have your wits about you and guard yourself from assholes, grifters, letches, shills, etc...

Gothic music (proper) is (apparently) bands that have a certain post-punk sound, without the use of synths, but still electronic (I know a deathrock girl who will fight you on this.)  Bauhaus is probably one of the best examples, so much that SNL used it as the intro music to their goth parody skit.

 

Goth music however includes many different types now.  Mostly because in the afore mentioned clubs there wasn't enough goth music to fill a night, and there were more people that would show up that liked different things.  Industrial got lumped in along with various types of metal, punk, and electronic music.  Then it evolved as scenes do and now we have bits of dubstep and retrowave thrown in.  The scene got shitty for a while but then it seems to have improved lately.  I thank TRVST and Boy Harsher for that because apparently the crowd here can't get enough of that shit.  Faderhead and Combichrist BTFO and the scene is better for it.  See those two bands got pretty big and influenced A LOT of the music in the following years.  Then there was a switch from traditional EBM music to a sort of neoEBM music which was more synthpoppy.  If you listen to Skinny Puppy and then to And One you can see what I mean.

The scene died out when everyone got jobs and had kids.  There's always an influx of kids who seem to enjoy it though and keep it going at least for a few more years.

[Class-Punk]

I feel like there were always two main views on goth, the traditionalist/gatekeeper view and the more relaxed view, I am not against either.  I'm not obsessed with being a "goth gatekeeper"; although I'm open to kindly educate people on dark post-punk and gothic rock if we cross paths and the topic comes up. 

I wanted to be part of the scene the most when I was younger and didn't have the money or transportation to be a part of it.  I cared less and less as I got older, for example the times I went to Necto on a Factory night, back in my 20's, there was a feeling where I kind of wondered how superficial the whole alternative thing was to the vast majority of these people, and how much it even all meant to them.  In my 30's now I kind of wonder, what the whole point is of even dressing up and going out. 

I love Victorian gothic literature because the gothic aesthetic serves some kind of intellectual function, it's not there just for the sake of itself, it's part of an identity that is somehow rooted in significant or severe mystery, but also not necessarily unsolvable mystery.  If you take a Victorian gothic character and put them in blue jeans and a t-shirt, like everyday me, the substance is still there, the inner gothic-ness still lives in them, it's like their mind is dressed to the nines because of what they've learned and the strange experiences it has given them. 

I want more of the "mysteriousness" part of goth than just the clothing, the idea of people who are mysterious because they are actively struggling and suffering-- sometimes horribly, to improve themselves or find understanding, that's what I like; and when you dress dark and alternative with that mindset, there is more substance behind the style.  I want to explore mysteries and become more mysterious and more intellectual in the process, and I want that in my dark music too.  But I don't consider this the one right way to approach "goth" or being "gothic", however I personally see it as a version of goth with more substance, and it is simply the idea of goth that I have aspired to out of a general love for the culture.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Class-Punk

[Mari Augdahl Bes Bes]

On 1/24/2021 at 5:08 PM, Class-Punk said:

I feel like there were always two main views on goth, the traditionalist/gatekeeper view and the more relaxed view, I am not against either.  I'm not obsessed with being a "goth gatekeeper"; although I'm open to kindly educate people on dark post-punk and gothic rock if we cross paths and the topic comes up. 

I wanted to be part of the scene the most when I was younger and didn't have the money or transportation to be a part of it.  I cared less and less as I got older, for example the times I went to Necto on a Factory night, back in my 20's, there was a feeling where I kind of wondered how superficial the whole alternative thing was to the vast majority of these people, and how much it even all meant to them.  In my 30's now I kind of wonder, what the whole point is of even dressing up and going out. 

I love Victorian gothic literature because the gothic aesthetic serves some kind of intellectual function, it's not there just for the sake of itself, it's part of an identity that is somehow rooted in significant or severe mystery, but also not necessarily unsolvable mystery.  If you take a Victorian gothic character and put them in blue jeans and a t-shirt, like everyday me, the substance is still there, the inner gothic-ness still lives in them, it's like their mind is dressed to the nines because of what they've learned and the strange experiences it has given them. 

I want more of the "mysteriousness" part of goth than just the clothing, the idea of people who are mysterious because they are actively struggling and suffering-- sometimes horribly, to improve themselves or find understanding, that's what I like; and when you dress dark and alternative with that mindset, there is more substance behind the style.  I want to explore mysteries and become more mysterious and more intellectual in the process, and I want that in my dark music too.  But I don't consider this the one right way to approach "goth" or being "gothic", however I personally see it as a version of goth with more substance, and it is simply the idea of goth that I have aspired to out of a general love for the culture.

I find the so-called 'gatekeeper' - crowd to be both a bit pretentious and educational at the same time. Some seems to make a big issue out of this whole industrial or gothic metal- thing, which can be a bit of annoying. 

 

 

Yet, others are simply out to do nothing more than educate,which is fine. Sometimes people do have Superior knowledge. 

 

Im not goth, but I like to hang out in clubs, listen to the music, and dress up. And, of course, a lot of goths are really interesting. 

[Scary Guy]

On 2/17/2021 at 4:55 PM, Mari Augdahl Bes Bes said:

 

Im not goth, but I like to hang out in clubs, listen to the music, and dress up

Congratulations, you're a fucking goth!  Maybe a "weekend warrior" but still...

Goth is a mindset.  To me it's anyone who views life with a darker tinge to it and/or anyone who helps to add that tinge for everyone else.  Some people I know whom shall remain nameless (no one here) like the music and the clothing but have the emotional depth of a puddle and the mental acuity of themselves twenty years ago when they first got into this scene.  Maybe they've learned a thing or two, and maybe they slowed down a bit.  However they really haven't evolved much as a person.  Some are just posers, who exist for a few years, party, and leave for some normie life.  Others stay, and sometimes overstay.  I too will become the old guy the young kids bitch about going "Why is HE here?" "You little shits I came in with the furniture!  GET OFF MY LAWN!... I MEAN FLOOR!"

I do like the sense of community that exists.  People float in and float out though.  I miss those that have floated away and are just gone now for whatever reason.  Life gets in the way and relationships (friends and otherwise) get strained and break or get put on indefinite hold like the scammer spammers trying to sell me an extended warranty for my (used) car.  While it's not a goth song, the Men At Work song "Overkill" describes how I feel pretty well.

Getting off track and I may be repeating myself but I used to drive a hearse and hit the clubs every weekend and during the week, sometimes DJing those nights and STILL didn't think I was goth enough.  Then I grew up and realized I didn't care anymore.  I didn't have to validate myself to anyone else.  I'm me, and if that isn't good enough for someone then I say fuck'em.

Hell if you know Marz in the scene she's not your typical goth at all.  She certainly doesn't dress the part, and her bright and cheery disposition kind of throw you off.  However she enjoys the music and the people and that's enough for me.  She counts in her own way.  Hell there are many people who have shown up to the gathering or who are on the website that might not look the part and they count too.

Trad goths that gatekeep can go fuck themselves.  As all things do the culture evolves and it never belonged to them in the first place.  It doesn't belong to anyone, it belongs to everyone.  Much like the Borg, when people join they add to the collective.  They make it stronger and help to shape and define what it is.  It's interesting to see what it will become.  At the very least I'm fucking ecstatic that dumbstep has mostly died out and the current club music is fucking great.  I fear in ten years when it will become retro and cool again though.

[Mari Augdahl Bes Bes]

On 1/24/2021 at 5:08 PM, Class-Punk said:

I feel like there were always two main views on goth, the traditionalist/gatekeeper view and the more relaxed view, I am not against either.  I'm not obsessed with being a "goth gatekeeper"; although I'm open to kindly educate people on dark post-punk and gothic rock if we cross paths and the topic comes up. 

I wanted to be part of the scene the most when I was younger and didn't have the money or transportation to be a part of it.  I cared less and less as I got older, for example the times I went to Necto on a Factory night, back in my 20's, there was a feeling where I kind of wondered how superficial the whole alternative thing was to the vast majority of these people, and how much it even all meant to them.  In my 30's now I kind of wonder, what the whole point is of even dressing up and going out. 

I love Victorian gothic literature because the gothic aesthetic serves some kind of intellectual function, it's not there just for the sake of itself, it's part of an identity that is somehow rooted in significant or severe mystery, but also not necessarily unsolvable mystery.  If you take a Victorian gothic character and put them in blue jeans and a t-shirt, like everyday me, the substance is still there, the inner gothic-ness still lives in them, it's like their mind is dressed to the nines because of what they've learned and the strange experiences it has given them. 

I want more of the "mysteriousness" part of goth than just the clothing, the idea of people who are mysterious because they are actively struggling and suffering-- sometimes horribly, to improve themselves or find understanding, that's what I like; and when you dress dark and alternative with that mindset, there is more substance behind the style.  I want to explore mysteries and become more mysterious and more intellectual in the process, and I want that in my dark music too.  But I don't consider this the one right way to approach "goth" or being "gothic", however I personally see it as a version of goth with more substance, and it is simply the idea of goth that I have aspired to out of a general love for the culture.

Thats pretty much my perspective, too. I think some people are too obsessed with poseurs or 'poseurs' Where it doesnt exoist. I also think some people blow this whole elitism out of proportions. I get it that some people are not too found about goth YouTubers and the whole haul- thing, but arguing over it all the time gets boring eventually. 

 

And, yes, when people call themselves goth and than they cite an emotional hardcore- band as reference. I do understand that some goths can find it a bit of upsetting when they constantly have to explain this misconception, given that goth tends to be misunderstood as a subculture.

 

Theres nothing wrong with being goth, theres nothing wrong with trying to learn more about the subculture, theres nothing wrong with liking Evanescence or pop music. Its just that pop music doesnt belong under the goth umbrella, unless we are talking about synth pop 

 

[Mari Augdahl Bes Bes]

https://youtu.be/eu63P2Sxlpo

[Scary Guy]

"there's nothing wrong with liking Evanescence or pop music. Its just that pop music doesn't belong under the goth umbrella"

I feel this is incorrect.  To be clear I'm really not a fan.  It does tick that mark though.  There are lots of things like that which the masses would consider goth and the elitists would not:

Faith no More - Last Cup of Sorrow

Ozzy and Lita - Close my Eyes Forever

Anything Marylin Manson has ever done (even before he was canceled)
Industrial
Synthpop
Etc...

Again, all it has to be is dark in nature.  If you want to be all "trad goth" about it, then technically it's ONLY Cold Wave, Deathrock, and Post-Punk.  I don't even have enough elitist goth cred to comment really.  Where are Knocker and Justin Carver?  I remember some good conversations back in the day.  Eventually I think they got tired of arguing about it though and realized it doesn't really matter since no one actually cares.  We're too busy doing cool shit.

[Stu]

To some, Goth is a look.  To others, it's who they are.  Nothing wrong with dabbling, I guess, but Goth is more than make up and black clothes.

[Scary Guy]

Both still count though.  Real goth vs posers has been a battle that has gone on for as long as this debate has.  Sad thing is some who have said "it's not just a phase, mom" eventually found out that's exactly what it was.

Maybe when you combine who someone is on the inside with the aesthetic looks on the outside do you get an actual full goth.

But I think people feel a strong need to be elitist and exclude the lesser demigoths just to feel special, while secretly liking all the same content.  I just found out my friend's Deathrock wife loves M.C.R.

Like what you like, who gives a fuck?

[Scary Guy]

VINDICATION!!!!!!!!  (Sorta, as I still count proto-goth as goth, at least in spirit.)