Do you consider the Confederate Flag Racist?

[Guest Game of Chance]

One time I was picking a girl up for a date, and she invited me in to meet her family. As I walked in, I noticed a huge confederate flag on the wall. She did not seem to notice my general sense of unease at the situation. Next thing I know, N-bombs are flying around left and right. Date over.

Do I consider it racist? OF COURSE I DO.

[Guest Game of Chance]

Just an FYI... We declared war on Iraq before the first Gulf war.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

was Korea a war? or was that also a military action?

[Head Wreck]

korea i belive was a nato declaration

[Guest Game of Chance]

korea i belive was a nato declaration

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

declaration of war?? or declaration that we were going to invade their ass?

[Marblez]

One time I was picking a girl up for a date, and she invited me in to meet her family.  As I walked in, I noticed a huge confederate flag on the wall.  She did not seem to notice my general sense of unease at the situation.  Next thing I know, N-bombs are flying around left and right.  Date over. 

Do I consider it racist?  OF COURSE I DO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But do you consider the Confederate Flag on the General Lee racist?

[Marblez]

Vietnam wasn't a war, it was a "military action".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whether it was a War or not is not an important distinction here, thing is, we fought and we lost. Are we still proud of our men/boys and our stars and stripes??

Yes! why must there be shame in losing or conceding a losing battle? It saves lives from being wasted on futility.

[Jarodaka]

They were real people standing up for what they believed in, for their economy, for the lives and livelyhoods of their families. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What about the lives and livelihoods of those enslaved? The economy of the South did not go 'belly up' after the Civil War. If anything, it had been stagnant due to the ingrained mentality of slavery. It certainly wasn't experiencing anything close to the industrial revolution in the North. The South is what you get when you put 'duty', 'family', 'race', and 'state/country' over things like rights and economic freedom. (Not that the North was a paragon of virtue, but it was closer to it than the South.)

Granted, you have to consider the context in which slaves were held. By the time of the Civil War, however, it was long overdue to get rid of the hypocrisy of slavery.

The Confederate Flag should be considered an interesting historical artifact and nothing more.

[Marblez]

What about the lives and livelihoods of those enslaved? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The economy of the South did not go 'belly up' after the Civil War.  If anything, it had been stagnant due to the ingrained mentality of slavery. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Slavery sucks and their lives were terrible....but was presenting it from the view of the majority of the southern, white, peoples - those that were fighting under the confederate flag.

[Goth Brooks]

declaration of war?? or declaration that we were going to invade their ass?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I recall, it was N Korea/China who did the "invading".

[Troy Spiral (13)]

To restate it exactly as listed in the title:

Do you consider the Confederate Flag Racist?

One aspect, of many confederates was that they were "racist" (also the same was true for a much larger percentage of the northern population at the time than is generally understood) they were also many other things, coragious, loyal , hardworking, funny... and everything else under the sun. Regardless, i dont think that the flag itself is nessisarly inherently a "racist symbol" but i know some view it as such.

I would also not, for instance consider the American flag "oppressive" or "racist" despite many instances in our history of being both of those things.

But, as people above have stated, i would tend not to want to have the confederate flag displayed in any other context than a fairly clearly defined "historical display or recreation. Out of kindness / respect for people that do, rationally or not , legitimately feel offended by that particular flag.

Im a pretty hardcore Civil War buff (and American History in general) and this is one of the subjects CW buffs love to debate endlessly. Its an interesting subject.

[Scary Guy]

"Boo hoo the flag hurts my feelings and offends me greatly"

Get over it. Many people don't like seing many things that they have to deal with on a daily basis.

Many people don't like seing gays, or rainbows, or triangles, or anything related to them. Should we cater to those people too? I think not.

People don't like visible facial peircings or tatoos. Should we hide them? Again I think not (not even for a job).

One of the greatest things about this country is it's freedom of speach (which that basically does fall under). As long as it doesn't hurt anyone else I'm fine with whatever it is.

"But Scary Guy it gives them mental anguish"

In my oppinion they're just whining pussies. They weren't slaves, their great grandparents were. I don't have anything against the african american population except for when they think they should get a free ride for what the white man did to them. If anyone should be pissed it's the native americans.

[Steven]

I think its an important symbol of our history.

To some - yes it does indeed communicate racism.

To others like me, it has nothing to do with me, a 2nd generation mexican american born in California. The racism I've encountered has a distincltively different flavor of its own.

it is however - historically relevant. It is a huge part of our background that in reality could have gone either way - and even if that history is an ugly one we have a duty to preserve it as truth, as a part of one of our developing chapters in this country. I dont beleive in taking it away. Those who are offended by it I'm epathetic toward - to a certain healthy degree. There is no more slavery. Yes there is racism still in this country - but we all have to learn to deal with it. Leave the flag alone.

[DarkVampire]

Troy made a point about the good old Stars and Stripes not being so "clean" itself. I could consider it genocidal after the US government tried to kill off the Indians or drive them off THEIR lands. But I don't consider the flag bad, just the people of the past who followed "bad" orders. Neither did my Grandfather (full Indian) who served in the Army under our wonderful flag during WW2. All symbols have their good points and they all have their skeletons in the closet. If you really want to get technical, the Union Jack should be considered racist since it was the British who inported slaves over here in the colonies.

[Rozzlyn]

Oh, and I attach no negative connotations to the Confederate Flag.

They were real people standing up for what they believed in, for their economy, for the lives and livelyhoods of their families.  It was not for slavery.  Slavery was an accepted norm in those days. Yes, I disagree with slavery - but these people were raised with it, taught that it was ok. 

We have a lot of smokers here, Wouldn't you try to fight it if the govenrment said right now - Second hand smoke is killing innocent people - it is now banned, immediately. There will now be no sale of cigarettes, cigars or ANY other smokeable product. Strictest punishment for anyone found disobeying. Get over it, it is for the good of the non-smokers. Oh, and by the way...since you live in a tobacco dependant state - your economy will go belly up, you have known no other life so many of you don't have other marketable skills, there is no guarantee for your children and your children's children...

I am glad they lost, it is for the good of the nation...but don't hate them and try to squash their pride in the ancesters vallient fight against what they would have deemed as oppression.  Sometimes a symbol isn't what everyone else believes it to be.

We couldn't overtake the opressors in Vietnam so we gave up...that makes us...what? Losers?  Scrap that American flag, weaklings.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's a difference between being taught that dehumanising others is OK and using flawed reports on the alleged harm of second-hand smoke as a means of telling other people what they can and cannot do to their own bodies. In fact, living in L.A. or Chicago or New Jersey and breathing the air is more harmful to the lungs and the rest of the body than spending a night in a smokey bar every week of your life.

Furthermore, Viet Nam was not our war to fight. It was the US intervening in a spat on the other side of the planet among a language few Americans could comprehend was "not Chinese." The States had no business being over there -- and especially had no business killing innocents and otherwise brutalising the natives and commiting war crimes.

[Rozzlyn]

What about the lives and livelihoods of those enslaved?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Precicely.

It's dehumanising to think "it's about the rights an livlihoods of the Southerners!" -- forgetting that not all Southerners were freemen.

The Confederate Flag should be considered an interesting historical artifact and nothing more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good call.

[Rozzlyn]

Many people don't like seing gays, or rainbows, or triangles, or anything related to them.  Should we cater to those people too?  I think not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, in this state, there was Prop 2 -- which was voted in, so those bigots have already been catered to.

If anyone should be pissed it's the native americans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good call.

[Paper Hearts]

It doesn't matter if say, one uses the Nazi flag for a handkerchief, a Jewish person is still going to be offended by the swastika on it. Similarly, an African American is going to be offended by something that is a symbol indicating that we are a group of people who believe that blacks are inferior and that we're also willing to fight for that belief inorder to continue their slavery. A government cannot sponsor something like that, it's ridiculous.

[Onyx]

I've seen a lot of discussions about this in various places on the net. What I find very interesting is that in general those in the north tend to see the flag in a more positive light.

I grew up in East Tennessee in a predominantly white town, surrounded by racists, and there was no doubt what displaying a confederate flag meant. "the south's gonna rise again", and a lot of other ugly things I would not want to repeat. It was, and is used by many as a racist symbol.

It's hard to explain just how pervasive that attitude is until you've experienced it firsthand. Our parents, teachers, most of our schoolmates actively encouraged racism, and I'm not sure how my brother and I escaped without picking it up. Somehow we just *knew* it was wrong. (We also both moved away as fast and as far as we could get soon as we turned 18 and would not consider moving back).

[Rozzlyn]

I've seen a lot of discussions about this in various places on the net.  What I find very interesting is that in general those in the north tend to see the flag in a more positive light.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that may have a lot to do with the fact that a bunch of people in the Midwest (Detroit, Ypsilanti and Chicago, especially) moved up to the area during WWII to find work in the auto and war-arms industries. While the children and grandchildren of those people most likely disn' end up racist, a lot of them may have these flags as family heirlooms and, not wanting to disrespect their grandparents, began attributing a positive meaning to it. I'm sure they'd see it much differently if, like you describe, they grew up with it constantly being pushed as a symbol with decidedly racist connotations.

[JaneDead]

The Confederate Flag should be considered an interesting historical artifact and nothing more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i agree.

i used to feel it was racist, i had a neighbor who had a huge one hanging in the window and that rubbed me the wrong way.

but over all flags signify nothing to me personally. i don't "pledge allegiance" to our flag. i understand what it represents to our country but to me it is just a flag.

same with any other flag. it is an object, people have given that object meaning it has.

[Guest Game of Chance]

But do you consider the Confederate Flag on the General Lee racist?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No. I consider it hillbilly. And I generalize (yes, I do)...hillbillies as racists. But really...what do I care? I'm caucasian.

[Killer_Bunnie]

well, my neibhor had one up purely because he was racist, his cousin down the street has one out for the same reason, I have spoken to them because they didn't like that my past boyfriend was black, and they had things to say about it that I won't get into. I used to think it was just a flag, but living by these guys I no longer think that because I have associated it with my ignorant racist neibhors.

[Paint it Black]

korea i belive was a nato declaration

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

NATO is the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and, according to its charter, can only be enacted as an alliance if a member country is attacked.

South Korea was not in NATO.

Anyways, the United Nations went to war with North Korea and later China.

Also, there used to be an alliance at the time called SEATO (South East Asian Treaty Org) which included S. Korea, Japan, S. Vietnam, USA, UK, France, Australia, Thailand and a host of others. I believe that alliance was enacted by the Korean War.

[Paint it Black]

I am glad they lost, it is for the good of the nation...

I understand what you mean. And I pretty much agree with you.

But, ever since the war ended, the Federal government has become the supreme ruler of this country and the states have pretty much lost most o ftheir 'sovereignty.'

Sometimes it is not bad. But the Fed Gov't has also overstepped its bounds many times.

Waco and Ruby Ridge come to mind.

[Paint it Black]

Whether it was a War or not is not an important distinction here, thing is, we fought and we lost.  Are we still proud of our men/boys and our stars and stripes??

Yes! why must there be shame in losing or conceding a losing battle?  It saves lives from being wasted on futility.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That can be argued.

The United States actually got what it was fighting for, a declaration from the North Vietnamese gov't that it would not interfere with the internal affairs of South Vietnam at the Paris Peace Accords.

the North got what it wanted when the US left.

It took 2 or 3 years, but the North eventually reneged on its side of the deal and invaded South Vietnam with its conventional forces and won the war.

The US was not willing to break our side of the treaty and we did not support the South with our air forces, which may have made the difference. The political and public will was just not there.

That being said, I dont like the way we left South Vietnam and I do consider it to be a defeat. We just didn't have the will to fight to win, which would have meant an invasion of the north and possibly WW3.