The Jesus freaks have taken over

[Jarodaka]

One small problem... Nothing exists unless it's observed.. proven scientific fact....

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Again, I'm very early in my quantum physics reading, but isn't that simplifying things a bit?

[gothicmom]

I think all theories should be taught and the idea that they are in fact THEORIES should be drilled in.

drilled in-sorry i couldn't think of a better word or phrase.

[SomeDanGuy]

We're not talking about the Big Bang. Things that distant and remote are hard to observe. Though some people have been mighty clever in putting things together, no one is going to claim the big bang is a fact. It's not taught as one in any decent schools anyway. That's just the tentative working theory based on the fact that all the galaxies seem to be accelerating away from each other. Hence, working backwards, they were once much, much closer together.

Evolution HAS been studied and proven on the scale we have to work with as humans. Granted, it's microevolution of a population and not observing huge, dramatic changes, but that's because we haven't been around all that long.

I know A LOT about biochemistry and biology (espeically human) now and here are some things I've learned: 1) It is amazing how similar we are to every other living thing 2) ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny in many, many organ systems 3) if someone DID design us, they sure ain't perfect. Because there are errors like crazy.

Who the hell decided we should have an appendix, even though it serves no function other than occassionally killing us? Why do we have a tail and gill slits during development? Why are the layers of the retina in reverse order so that we can't see as well? Why do we have such inferior senses to most other animals even though we're supposedly god's best creation?

[SomeDanGuy]

Hmm, re-reading my post, it may come off as "worked up" or aggressive, but it's not really. I just throw in words like "hell" as flavoring, but it's more meant to be goofy, not angry

[bean]

I think that people should know what religion is.  I think people SHOULD read the bible.  It offers basic and reasonable advice, and evolutionary concepts....

Ok I'm done now....for now. :fear  :erm  :blink  :fear

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Yes, and everyone SHOULD read the Koran, visit a Buddhist temple, read Hindu text, visit a Mosque, study Judaism, study all other religions that exhist. There are other religions in the world that offer "basic and reasonable advice and evolutionary concepts." One religion shouldn't be forced down people's throats.

[bean]

I have never found evolution to be anti christian anyway....What is 7 days in the eye of a god?  An eternity to us.....

I don't like this happening but it doesn't bother me much.  I think my kids are pretty smart and will figure things out for themselves....

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What worries me is that there are kids out there that are not that smart and cannot figure things out for themselves.

[Vater Araignee]

I should add....

Everyone wants to be individual.  Everyone wants to believe they are different from everyone else. 

Everybody has different "Theories" on different topics, have different views on "religion", "science", etc...When there was only ONE in the first place.  Now there 1000's of different sects, religions, theories whatever.

People want to believe they were evolved from apes becuase this justifies thier animalistic behaviors.  No morals, or conscience = corruption 

As time goes on, people will become more and more violent and crude and careless, selfish, greedy, and eventually will become the apes we evolved from.........

I think that people should know what religion is.  I think people SHOULD read the bible.  It offers basic and reasonable advice, and evolutionary concepts....

Ok I'm done now....for now. :fear  :erm  :blink  :fear

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I'm sorry.

OK. I just want to put one thing forward....

The Big Bang.

Widly accept Scientific Theory. One small problem... Nothing exists unless it's observed.. proven scientific fact....

Who watched the big bang?

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If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around to hear it does it make a sound? No and it didn't fall ether because nobody saw it fall it must have always been there.

 

Who the hell decided we should have an appendix, even though it serves no function other than occassionally killing us?  Why do we have a tail and gill slits during development?  Why are the layers of the retina in reverse order so that we can't see as well?  Why do we have such inferior senses to most other animals even though we're supposedly god's best creation?

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The appendix is still used by humans that don't eat regularly. Because we save people by way of appendectomy they exist to breed and further contaminate the Gene pool.

The tail I knew about but gill slits? Cool.

Eyes ears nose? Because we overcompensate with our brain.

[Mikielikesit]

I believe religious beliefs are fine if you don't push them on to other people there are diffinatly more then one way to skin a cat as the saying goes. Each belief system is basically the same concepts but we humans have a tendency to twist the message whether it be from the koran, the bible or any other text that teach the basic human laws. There is too much evidence for evolution to just say hawsh pawsh and throw the info out. I believe it was said "religion is the opiate of the masses" and I think too many people are jonesing for a fix and they want everyone else strung out too.

and beside I think the aliens are the missing link.

[Vater Araignee]

ok lets restate what the thread is suppose to be about.

"Intelligent Design" Being Taught along side "the Theory of Evolution" in public schools

Let me start of by saying that If you do not want children then:

"YOUR OPINION DOES NOT MATTER"

I'm not saying if you don't have kids I'm saying...

An anti breeder does not have the right to decide what should happen to my kids in school.

Now you cant teach intelligent design in school with out teaching religion, all you can do is make a statement about what some people believe.

All though I enjoy debating religion ultimately I don't give a shit what any body believes, Until, UNTIL they push it onto MY kids.

Beyond reading writing arithmetic and flat out straight up non religious science. Nobody has the right to teach my kids anything I don't want taught. Except my wife Sinnaminn.

You see parents are the only people that have the right to teach contrary to what the other parent wants.

[The_Dark]

An anti breeder does not have the right to decide what should happen to my kids in school.

Thank you for saying that. I didn't want to start that argument, but since you have done the dirty work and I can lay all the blame on you... I totaly agree. Anti-breeders have taken themselves out of that decision or any decision like it.

It doesn't bother me if they teach this in school or if they teach Aliens created us... I'm a responsible parent.. I talk to my children every day at dinner. I ask them questions.. "What did you learn in school today?" "What did the teachers try to teach you?" "Did you understand it?" "Do you have any more questions?" "Do you need help?"

School doesn't stop when the kids get on the bus and go home. For example... Yesterday we went blackberrie picking... While on that trip into the deep woods I lectured my children on geology and natural history. We live at the base of a large hill that was created by the last ice age. This was a far south as the glaciers got. I teach my kids to question everything.. There are no dumb questions, but there are plenty of really stupid answers... I do my best to teach my kids to spot the stupidity of the world.

[SomeDanGuy]

That's cool, Dark. I wish all parents were that good.

As anti-religion as I am, when/if I have kids I'm still going to teach them about all sorts of religions and encourage them to make decisions on their own when they're capable.

One thing that keeps coming up in this thread that I disagree with is that intelligent design is somehow christian. It's not. I certainly don't think it's science either, but I disagree with people who argue against it saying that it's encouraging one type of religion in school. All it says is that because the world is so complicated, it must have been created by a higher, more intelligent power. That could mean the god of any of the major world religions. (Though it would not be in line with assorted other religions possibly. I don't claim to be a world religions expert)

[sinnaminn]

That's cool, Dark.  I wish all parents were that good.

As anti-religion as I am, when/if I have kids I'm still going to teach them about all sorts of religions and encourage them to make decisions on their own when they're capable.

One thing that keeps coming up in this thread that I disagree with is that intelligent design is somehow christian.  It's not.  I certainly don't think it's science either, but I disagree with people who argue against it saying that it's encouraging one type of religion in school.  All it says is that because the world is so complicated, it must have been created by a higher, more intelligent power.  That could mean the god of any of the major world religions.  (Though it would not be in line with assorted other religions possibly. I don't claim to be a world religions expert)

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I don't consider intelligent dasign to be a"christian" theory .I think there are lots of non christians who subscribe to those kinds of concepts.Of course there are a great number of Christians who embrace this line of thinking so we may reconcile are our faith with our science!

Some people don't believe in any higher power so they may not want their children to be exsposed to this theory!What ever the religion or lack there of anyone chooses I'm sure on some level they hope their children will share their beliefs!But of course children need to be given a chance to make an informed choice.School is not the place for them to recieve that info! I think that was what I meant! yeah yeah that was all =)

[Msterbeau]

Let me start of by saying that If you do not want children then:

"YOUR OPINION DOES NOT MATTER"

I'm not saying if you don't have kids I'm saying...

An anti breeder does not have the right to decide what should happen to my kids in school.

I completely disagree. Weather a person has children or not, they will interact with those children at some point in the future. Everyone in society has a vested interest in having all children learn to be literate and well-educated. I'm not saying they have a right to be directly involved in our children's lives ...I AM saying the have a right to question school curriculum.

Personally I think that "Intelligent design" is just a concept created by fundamentalist Christians as a more palitable way to teach creationism...

[phee]

I completely disagree.  Weather a person has children or not, they will interact with those children at some point in the future.  Everyone in society has a vested interest in having all children learn to be literate and well-educated.  I'm not saying they have a right to be directly involved in our children's lives ...I AM saying the have a right to question school curriculum.

Personally I think that "Intelligent design" is just a concept created by fundamentalist Christians as a more palitable way to teach creationism...

I have to agree... wtih Msterbeau

[SomeDanGuy]

Me too. Schools shape our children, hence our society so I don't think we can exclude people who don't have kids.

And yes, intelligent design is being offered up by christians because it is a more pallatable step in the right direction for them. The theory itself is just a philosophical argument though.

[The_Dark]

You people keep blaiming the Christians (2.1 billion people).. What about the Muslims (1.3 billion people), Jews (12.9 million people), Hindus (900 million people), Zoroastrians (2.6 million people), Scientologists (500 thousand people) and all the other people that believe in Creation?

[phee]

You people keep blaiming the Christians (2.1 billion people).. What about the Muslims (1.3 billion people), Jews (12.9 million people), Hindus (900 million people), Zoroastrians (2.6 million people), Scientologists (500 thousand people) and all the other people that believe in Creation?

I don't blame these other people because I don't see them lobbying in this country for intelligent design in our schools like the Right wing Christians are...

[The_Dark]

You have asked every lobbiest thier religious preferances?

[phee]

No... but I have never "heard of" a Hindi lobbiest pushing for this... That doesn't mean that there is not a huge Hindi group lobbying for Intelligent design that has somehow stayed out of the public eye... but thus far I have only heard of Christians in this country pushing for this.... and not all Christians either.

[Msterbeau]

.... and not all Christians either.

Exactly. I did say "fundamentalist" Christian... It's a vocal minority that are pushing for this.

[Vater Araignee]

I completely disagree.  Weather a person has children or not, they will interact with those children at some point in the future.  Everyone in society has a vested interest in having all children learn to be literate and well-educated.  I'm not saying they have a right to be directly involved in our children's lives ...I AM saying the have a right to question school curriculum.

Personally I think that "Intelligent design" is just a concept created by fundamentalist Christians as a more palitable way to teach creationism...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ya got me there, almost...

And let me be the ... Well hell I don't seem to have a proper word for it.

Anyway Fundamentalist Christians don't believe in interpreting the Bible especially creation.

If you interpret one thing in the Bible then that leaves every thing in the Bible open to interpretation effectively turning "thou shalt not kill" into "thou shalt not kill except"

It matters not if you are one of these

# Christianity: 2.1 billion

# Islam: 1.3 billion

# Hinduism: 900 million

# Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

# Buddhism: 376 million

# primal-indigenous: 300 million

# African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

# Sikhism: 23 million

# Juche: 19 million

# Spiritism: 15 million

# Judaism: 14 million

# Baha'i: 7 million

# Jainism: 4.2 million

# Shinto: 4 million

# Cao Dai: 4 million

# Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

# Tenrikyo: 2 million

# Neo-Paganism: 1 million

# Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

# Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

# Scientology: 500 thousand

do you want the rest of the others teaching your kids their "correct version" of creation?

No you don't,because you don't want them uber confused. But the majority can agree hard science is the way to go.

[phee]

Ya got me there, almost...

And let me be the ... Well hell I don't seem to have a proper word for it.

Anyway Fundamentalist Christians don't believe in interpreting the Bible especially creation.

It matters not if you are one of these

# Christianity: 2.1 billion

# Islam: 1.3 billion

# Hinduism: 900 million

# Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

# Buddhism: 376 million

# primal-indigenous: 300 million

# African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

# Sikhism: 23 million

# Juche: 19 million

# Spiritism: 15 million

# Judaism: 14 million

# Baha'i: 7 million

# Jainism: 4.2 million

# Shinto: 4 million

# Cao Dai: 4 million

# Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

# Tenrikyo: 2 million

# Neo-Paganism: 1 million

# Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

# Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

# Scientology: 500 thousand

do you want the rest of the others teaching your kids their "correct version" of creation?

No you don't,because you don't want them uber confused. But the majority can agree hard science is the way to go.

I agree... again...

[Msterbeau]

And let me be the ... Well hell I don't seem to have a proper word for it.

Anyway Fundamentalist Christians don't believe in interpreting the Bible especially creation.

Show me someone that reads the bible and I'll show you someone that interprets it. Hell, Most of the bible itself is the result of human interpretation... :doh

[Vater Araignee]

Show me someone that reads the bible and I'll show you someone that interprets it.  Hell, Most of the bible itself is the result of human interpretation...  :doh

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Well yea but I can only relate to you why they call themselves fundamentalists. Had it all explained to me by a kid at work.

His parents are FC he was sick of going to church so he simply stated in some kind of church meeting that god didn't create the earth in seven of our day but seven of gods day's they said seven days are seven days, he argued and they asked his parents not to bring him back until he "Saw the light". They may interpret but they wont admit it.

I'd better stop here before I side track and start ranting about the extreme right/left/muslim/socialists/commies etc. etc. frelling crazier than me. Thats sayin alot.

[Steven]

Show me someone that reads the bible and I'll show you someone that interprets it.  Hell, Most of the bible itself is the result of human interpretation...  :doh

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My Christian response to this is: YES - THIS IS TRUE - I INTRPRET IT.

Really now folks, .... do we have any choice? I do the same thing when I'm reading other texts, like Hemmingway's "a movable feast" - I attatch my own emotions, values, experiences, and vision to the written text , along with what I feel I have studied and understand about Hemmingway himself and his values and passions, and ultimately - I make an interpretation of what he is trying saying to me, the reader.

Sometimes the text is very obviously black and white. And often, it's not. I have many times found others interpretation of literature to be very different than my own. This does not anger me. Usually - it expands my view.

In any literature group or class ultiamtely that is what is done - your searching for what is being said, why, and what the motivations and messages really are. Writers do this all the time in writing groups. Interesting to me that this same process becomes some sort of offense when applied to a religeous work like the Bible. Interesting because i have seen people VERY passionatley hold their position on what theyve interpreted a peice of literature (or for that matter - a song, or a painting) to mean as their truth. And in discussion - they "pushed their truth on me". Told me I was wrong. Or ignorant. Or short sighted. They "needed" to be right about what meant so much to them. And I'm just talking about art .

All of us in here seem to be seekers - we examine and dig and search and ultimately make up our own minds and usually in some way or the other we eventually claim a position - all of this is good. And as much as we want to embrace a relative approach, its a very difficult thign to do, as most of us who want to be relative dont use that method in every aspect of their lives, which seems to me, to defy the approach of relativism altogethor.

I interpret the bible. I'm guilty.

Now - as far as creationism (intelligent design) -vs- Darwinism being taught in school - I dont want either one taught. Teach kids to read. 1/2 of them in America cant. Teach them to do basic mathmatics. Again - in America, we are on a downward trend. Teach them lifeskills that have nothing to do with identity - leave the rest to parents and families. Equip the kids to be self sufficient, so that they do not become a taxpayers burden - thats the job of our schools.

Steven