Offensive me, Was just causing anticipation.

[Vater Araignee]

Moses is schitsofrantic.

I'm not saying what he said was wrong. I'm just saying that if you hear/see "The Everything" (god for those of you that don't know me) well your just well [sucking teeth] yha.

on your marks...

get set...

CUSS ME OUT!!!

[Amerist]

Er, uh, wha? Sorry, Vater, I'm just really confused by that ... but if thou wanna be cussed out.

Thou, um, thou stupid mucc'h.

I hope that works, it's one of the worst I've got.

[Vater Araignee]

Er, uh, wha? Sorry, Vater, I'm just really confused by that ... but if thou wanna be cussed out.

Thou, um, thou stupid mucc'h.

I hope that works, it's one of the worst I've got.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What exactly about it confuses you?

[Amerist]

Well. It seems to be about Moses. After making that post I went and re-read the OP ... and ... thou want to simply suggest that Moses (I assume Moses from Christian mythology here) might have been schizophrenic or delusional, i.e. having hallucinations and et al?

[Vater Araignee]

Him and a few others.

BTW i differentiate the two halves so that would be Jewish mythos

[Amerist]

Him and a few others.

BTW i differentiate the two halves so that would be Jewish mythos

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, it isn't uncommon for what is commonly believed to be schizophrenia to present symptomatically as extreme piousness and/or sainthood. In a way straight up mediaevalism has a great deal of the treatment of people who would be persistently persecuted as insane in modern society canonized as saints because of their fixations and zeal.

The biggest problem is that a truly spiritual state might actually be indistinguishable from actual mental illness according to modern psychology. The most simplistic definition of a psychosis is mental dissonance pushed to such an extreme that it interferes with a person's ability to interact with the rest of society...and well, someone like Moses who actually talks to God, sees manifestations (possibly hallucinations,) and wants to bring these revelations to the people could be seen as affecting one's ability to interact.

The issue with all this is that because they cannot be adequately distinguished from the person who thinks that Hitler is in her fridge and is telling her to profess to the neighborhood that Atlantis is going to rise and nagas are going to take over New York City...

In the end it doesn't matter if Moses was "crazy" or not because the stories of his experiences are now part of that mythology, they are canon, accepted, and a worthwhile part of the entire culture. Crazy or no.

[Vater Araignee]

Well, it isn't uncommon for what is commonly believed to be schizophrenia to present symptomatically as extreme piousness and/or sainthood. In a way straight up mediaevalism has a great deal of the treatment of people who would be persistently persecuted as insane in modern society canonized as saints because of their fixations and zeal.

The biggest problem is that a truly spiritual state might actually be indistinguishable from actual mental illness according to modern psychology. The most simplistic definition of a psychosis is mental dissonance pushed to such an extreme that it interferes with a person's ability to interact with the rest of society...and well, someone like Moses who actually talks to God, sees manifestations (possibly hallucinations,) and wants to bring these revelations to the people could be seen as affecting one's ability to interact.

The issue with all this is that because they cannot be adequately distinguished from the person who thinks that Hitler is in her fridge and is telling her to profess to the neighborhood that Atlantis is going to rise and nagas are going to take over New York City...

In the end it doesn't matter if Moses was "crazy" or not because the story of his experiences are now part of that mythology, they are canon, accepted, and a worthwhile part of the entire culture. Crazy or no.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

like i said

I'm not saying what he said was wrong. I'm just saying that if you hear/see "The Everything" (god for those of you that don't know me) well your just well [sucking teeth] yha.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Steven]

QuestionS for both of you....

Moses, the schitzophrenic - do you beleive he never existed at all, or that his existence and expereiences were simply misconstrued because he was a bit nutty?

And if you answer with the "bit nutty" response, if he was wacky how then was he able to control and lead an exodus for so many years....its not like he had Hilters (admittedly a bit wacky) military might.

And final question, if Moses had nutty delusions of granduer or self importance, and if the "traditional" beleife that he wrote hisd own history and the early history of Israel, why then did he include that at one point God was set to kill him for disobedience until his wife intervened for him, and why would he write in his seperation from the people and his not being able to be included into the promised land? Why taint your own rep?

And final question...... why is Moses again a featured player in the New Testament, if he was a bit wacky surely someone at some point in the shorter history between old and new would have brought this up?

[Vater Araignee]

Moses, the schitzophrenic - do you beleive he never existed at all, or that his existence and expereiences were simply misconstrued because he was a bit nutty?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If he didn't exist he couldn't be schitso.

[Vater Araignee]

And if you answer with the "bit nutty" response, if he was wacky how then was he able to control and lead an exodus for so many years....its not like he had Hilters (admittedly a bit wacky) military might.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nobody ever said a schitso couldn't be smart or charismatic.

[Vater Araignee]

And final question, if Moses had nutty delusions of granduer or self importance, and if the "traditional" beleife that he wrote hisd own history and the early history of Israel, why then did he include that at one point God was set to kill him for disobedience until his wife intervened for him, and why would he write in his seperation from the people and his not being able to be included into the promised land?  Why taint your own rep?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If "The Everything" wanted him dead it would have been instantaneous.

His wife's intervention? It's called humoring him.

Why taint his own rep? He is not sane.

[Vater Araignee]

And final question...... why is Moses again a featured player in the New Testament, if he was a bit wacky surely someone at some point in the shorter history between old and new would have brought this up?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What bible are you reading that places him as "featured" and not merely "mentioned" repetitively?

BTW that was three final questions and yes I was post whoring.

[Guest Game of Chance]

Ever read The Origin of Conciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes?

He suggests that ancient peoples could not "think" as we do today. That there was an evolutionary gap. Unable to introspect, they experienced auditory hallucinations - voices of gods actually heard (as in the Old Testament or the Iliad) - which, coming from the brain's right hemisphere, told a person what to do in circumstances of pleasure or pain.

He suggests that around 3000 years ago mankind "learned" conciousness through the evolutionary process. He goes on to suggest that those same auditory hallucinations are still there, only now they are filtered by our more advanced brains.

Interesting read, to say the least.

[Steven]

What bible are you reading that places him as "featured" and not merely "mentioned" repetitively?

BTW that was three final questions and yes I was post whoring.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Any Bible Bro.

At the transfiguration of Christ, where the Apostles witness Moses and Jesus talking. and in final conflicts between the beast and Moses and Elijah during the last days, where Moses and ELijah will have (limited) supernatural powers but be slain by the beast and lay headless in the streets for several days before being taken back to heaven.

thats a bit more than a mere mention......(I would assume a mention is of little consequence and a feature is an outcome of pre-disposed purpose....)

You also have to remember that I'm reading the text with a different mindset than a secular observer seeking to gather data to strengthen certain conclusions....

[Steven]

If he didn't exist he couldn't be schitso.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good Answer

[Steven]

Nobody ever said a schitso couldn't be smart or charismatic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this answer is a little thin for my taste Bro, pretty amazing stuff this here Moses puled off considering the times, limited resources, hostile environment, and myriad of people he had to create a common identity for (remember up till Moses times the peeps were not yet a distinguishable nation, they ahd been repeatedly overtaken and had had their culture watered down and intermixed with that of the surrounding nations).

that was a long ass run on sentence I just wrote.

Anyway - we've got no comperable examples like Moses' in our world history.... I find that in and of itself kinda "special"....

[Steven]

If "The Everything" wanted him dead it would have been instantaneous.

His wife's intervention? It's called humoring him.

Why taint his own rep? He is not sane.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If the "Everything wanted him dead it would have been however the "Everything" decided to do it. I suppose if your going to use a Biblical fiugure form a biblical text then you should consider other killings caused by "The Everything" and how he went about doing it. Sometimes quick......sometimes not so quick.....

His wife's intervention.... humuring who? (lost me there).

Let me make one point about the text thus far though - at this point in history (the history of this nation of Hebrews) women were NOT revered, and not treated with dignity and respect. So for Schitzo to even allow her intervention, let alone write about it - would / could critically harm his (sometimes wavering) public opinion.

I know you think he's schitzo....but then He'd have to also exhibit other schitzo like behaviour that likewise would have cause him to lose his grip on the peeps.

Remember too, that the people he's leading and shaping, are Hebrews...VERY hard headed and volitile.

I'm looking for consistency in your assumptions based on whats historically available to us, and so far all I can find is that he must be shitzo for beleiving he had conversations with God face to face. And that's just a matter of opinion in the end - if its true or not.

[Steven]

Ever read The Origin of Conciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes?

He suggests that ancient peoples could not "think" as we do today.  That there was an evolutionary gap.  Unable to introspect, they experienced auditory hallucinations - voices of gods actually heard (as in the Old Testament or the Iliad) - which, coming from the brain's right hemisphere, told a person what to do in circumstances of pleasure or pain.

He suggests that around 3000 years ago mankind "learned" conciousness through the evolutionary process.  He goes on to suggest that those same auditory hallucinations are still there, only now they are filtered by our more advanced brains.

Interesting read, to say the least.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you have to beleive in the eveloution of humans to bite into this one though, and I dont, I hthink we are as we were, and that includes being jacked up and wacked out. Still - sounds like a good read worth checking out...

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

By our current standards, Moses was definitely a schizophrenic. His ability to interact with society has little to do with anything. How many drug addicts do you know that are always high, interact well with society? Modern schizophrenics are on medications that only intensify what we'd consider hallucinations. In my opinion, it's not the "disease" that distorts reality, but the treatment.

Moses is schitsofrantic.

I'm not saying what he said was wrong. I'm just saying that if you hear/see "The Everything" (god for those of you that don't know me) well your just well [sucking teeth] yha.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This seems to be the common trend/belief. Why would you be cussed out for this?

you have to beleive in the eveloution of humans to bite into this one though, and I dont, I hthink we are as we were, and that includes being jacked up and wacked out.  Still - sounds like a good read worth checking out...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eh it does sound pretty interesting. That is a little bizarre though. Every animal has conciousness. Awareness of one's individuality, I would think is essential to self preservation.

[Vater Araignee]

this answer is a little thin for my taste Bro, pretty amazing stuff this here Moses puled off considering the times, limited resources, hostile environment, and myriad of people he had to create a common identity for (remember up till Moses times the peeps were not yet a distinguishable nation, they ahd been repeatedly overtaken and had had their culture watered down and intermixed with that of the surrounding nations).

that was a long ass run on sentence I just wrote.

Anyway - we've got no comperable examples like Moses' in our world history.... I find that in and of itself kinda "special"....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We have no modern examples because we lock them up or debunk them or let the FBI burn them.

I know Im about to sound like a back peddler but, lets say we have a modern human that speaks to "The Everything" now this person is in no way harming it's self or anyone else.

Now any modern psychologist with a touch of religion would simply be loth to label this person.

Go back thousands of years ago and this same person that even a modern psychologist would not label as crazy would by those times be labeled as either speaking to a higher power or a lower one (depending upon the culture) and treated accordingly.

His wife's intervention.... humuring who? (lost me there).

Let me make one point about the text thus far though - at this point in history (the history of this nation of Hebrews) women were NOT revered, and not treated with dignity and respect.  So for Schitzo to even allow her intervention, let alone write about it - would / could critically harm his (sometimes wavering) public opinion. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Humoring Moses. Of course that just feeds the sickness and obviously if he was crazy, then to him ultimately public opinion does not amount to a hill of beans which is evident by the very fact that he wrote about the tribulations that can and have put him in a negative light.

I know you think he's schitzo....but then He'd have to also exhibit other schitzo like behaviour that likewise would have cause him to lose his grip on the peeps.

Remember too, that the people he's leading and shaping, are Hebrews...VERY hard headed and volitile.

I'm looking for consistency in your assumptions based on whats historically available to us, and so far all I can find is that he must be shitzo for beleiving he had conversations with God face to face.  And that's just a matter of opinion in the end - if its true or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now I'm merely an amateur psychologist but simply reading his history before he had his communications with "The Everything" I would automatically assume that he was going to become one screwed up individual and then taking into account his "delusions" and his "antisocial" tendencies I would be forced to conclude that he is a schitsofrantic with borderline personality disorder and delusions of grandeur tottering on paranoid.

I would like to believe that Moses communicated with "The Everything" in such a direct manner but, unfortunately to do so would make "God told me to suffer the sinner to live no more." and "The Devil made me do it." viable excuses.

side note:

I do believe that we are communicated with, just not in the manner that Moses is claiming and we are never told what to do but simply shown truths.

How we interpret these truths...

well just look at the differing opinions being stated in this thread based on the assumption/fact that Moses was a man and not a character.

[Vater Araignee]

This seems to be the common trend/belief.  Why would you be cussed out for this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because I have been cussed out for it.

Not by a bible thumper either but by a perfectly logical christian who's entire argument is based upon the word faith.

Just for some fun suggest this to a bible thumper and try to smell the sulfur exuding from their rage.

[The_Dark]

God speaks to us all. Some of us are more open to his voice than others.

[The_Dark]

Also, God doesn't make anyone do anything. He/She/It gives us choices and trys to lead us to make the correct choice....

[Vater Araignee]

He/She/It

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I love it when people take the time and consideration to do that.

But say it to fast and he shit.

[Steven]

Because I have been cussed out for it.

Not by a bible thumper either but by a perfectly logical christian who's entire argument is based upon the word faith.

Just for some fun suggest this to a bible thumper and try to smell the sulfur exuding from their rage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

....aw C'mon man, I'm a thumper (been called that at least) and I havent threated to beat your ass even once....

PS - yeah - many (too many) will give you trite responses based on their religiosity and the tapes playing in their heads.

But do you also then disregard those who also exhibit occasional cognizant thought, and base their model of faith on personal life patters and experiences within said beleif system? I mean - if we're all going to be trashed for our weak links whats the point of any of this?

PPSS - the "logical" christian who cussed you out.....

that seems like a rather illogical and highly emotional response based on his or her personal frustration based on an unsteady personal foundation outside of rhetoric. In my world.... that's what I call a pew polisher, not a Christian.

Now I"M going to get cussed out.....(but I warn you boys I aint no punk beeeech)