Michael Moore's Letter

[Msterbeau]

Marc, maybe you should read all of my post... there are a couple links there to other sources... oh wiat.. those dont support your line of thinking either..so they dont count...

and um.. exactly where did I call anyone a name?

OK. I did miss the links. My bad. (And now, after reading through some it, I'll ad that THIS is what I would consider to be reasonable sources to quote from. Each peice has some semblance of balance and presenting different points of view on the guy. I still don't think he has the quaifications necessary... He should have had a LOT more in the field, hands on experience as well as lower level managment experience in emergency relief and disaster recovery... I don't see how a person can truly understand the nature of what needs doing at the top level without it.)

As for name calling... I see two in this post alone:

"Thats so closed minded it sickens me. "I don't like your source, so even if they say the same thing as everyone else, I wont talk to you until you use another source." Yeah, ok.. thats so... spoiled rotten child of you..."

Apparently calling people closed-minded and spoiled children is not name calling in your world. Which probably sums up why we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things.

Bren. Chex Mix is fine. Thanks!!!

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

I just wanted to state, I never called anyone a name... but I did bring up the dreaded 17*

[phee]

Thats so closed minded it sickens me. "I don't like your source, so even if they say the same thing as everyone else, I wont talk to you until you use another source." Yeah, ok.. thats so... spoiled rotten child of you...

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/07/national...al/07brown.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_D._Brown

Here are the links he was refering to... and yes "Closed-minded" and "Spoiled Rotten Child" are name calling

[phee]

Just curoius Zhukov.... what does "17*" mean?

[The_Dark]

I soppose you could call it name calling.. or you could take it as it was meant.. someone commenting on how someone else was behaving. I do find the whole mind set that so many on both sides of the left/right argument make.. "I don't like your source, so it doesn't count" It is childish and closeminded. Not likeing a source does not change the reality of wether it is correct or not.

Maybe you should stop looking for reasons to dislike me Marc. You seem to be doing it alot of late and I'm not sure why.

[phee]

I soppose you could call it name calling.. or you could take it as it was meant.. someone commenting on how someone else was behaving. I do find the whole mind set that so many on both sides of the left/right argument make.. "I don't like your source, so it doesn't count" It is childish and closeminded. Not likeing a source does not change the reality of wether it is correct or not.

Maybe you should stop looking for reasons to dislike me Marc. You seem to be doing it alot of late and I'm not sure why.

Thanks Dark.... I agree, but I don't think he is trying to dislike you... I think that some people just feel passionate about there points of view.

[phee]

please delete

thanks

[Msterbeau]

I soppose you could call it name calling.. or you could take it as it was meant.. someone commenting on how someone else was behaving. I do find the whole mind set that so many on both sides of the left/right argument make.. "I don't like your source, so it doesn't count" It is childish and closeminded. Not likeing a source does not change the reality of wether it is correct or not.

Maybe you should stop looking for reasons to dislike me Marc. You seem to be doing it alot of late and I'm not sure why.

I think it would be fair to say that I provided a legitimate reason and for discrediting FEMA's website as a "good" source. It's has nothing to do with whether *I* like it or not, it has everything to do with whether it provides accurate information or not. Maybe it does... but the potential for distortion is high, when the person who has authority over the agency and by default, that website is ultimately responsible for the content.

As for finding reasons to not like you... I'll say this. I'm a deeply sensitive and emotional person. I try like hell to remain objective but ultimately those traits make it difficult for me to not let the views expressed by someone cloud my overall opinion of them. The church I belong to holds dear the idea of tolerance. Again, I try like hell to observe this, it would heal so many wounds if people would learn to tolerate the differences in each of us instead of hilighting them and turning them into to reasons for hatered and violence. That said, for me it can be a painful process to span what seems like a chasm when it comes to the differences between conservatism and liberalism, and find the common ground that we share. Humanity.

I don't hate you. I don't want to hate you. You're obviously a passionate and intelligent person, but we just aren't going to see eye to eye on some very basic issues... My emotional nature about these topics will sometimes get the best of me.

[The_Dark]

See, thats just it.. I'm not a conservative... I'm a fence sitter. Middle of the road... My Social, economic and political views all go right down the middle.

Thats the problem... people are so damn far left or so far right that they cant even see the other side anymore. Thier view of the world had become so narrow and focused that they are blinded to everythign else... Dogma is bad, even liberal dogma.

It's sad really... Compromise is what gets things done.. and noone is willing to do it anymore.

[phee]

Any facists out there?

[Marblez]

Dark, If you and Steven and Marblez think that any self respecting journalist would cite that as a reliable piece of information, then you're living in another dimension.  It's PR, plain and simple, and I take PR with a BIG grain of salt. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not a journalist, have no press pass, nor do I have privy to the man's actual resume. What I am is a member on a message board that is deftly against vigilanti justice and public/political lynching of officials because of extravagant hype, propaganda and rumor.

There is good reason that someone is innocent until proven guilty in this country.

As you can see, I had already anticipated your concern of the bias of the source when I stated - . "Not that my source is going to be completely unbiased, but I am sure it isn't all a figment od GW's overactive imagination. "

This posibility for bias does does not invalidate the information therein, what it does is allow for scrutiny. So, go ahead, scrutinize, show me credible information to prove to me that each of the details listed in the source are falsified. Otherwise - I would ask that you stand down and consider your sources with a serious grain of salt as well.

[the eternal]

Wow! I didnt know right in his backdoor, that so many of you would be so passionately against this man.

He honestly does not have that much power, not nearly as much as say,

the president, or I dont know, the head of Homeland Security.

I wouldnt even have known about this letter had I not read it here.

He is a social critic, among the many, left and right, in this country.

Keep that in mind

[Amerist]

[Michael Brown] did work for us--the people--as a highly visible, very public official didn't he?

His actual resume is therefore subject to FOIA?

I guess that would be an extreme length to go to attempt to mollify a disagreement on a forum (snowballed up by Michael Moore's letter and the TIME article written on the subject of this resume,) but when I saw Marblez's mention not having privy to his resume -- It seems to me that as FEMA proxy employers we must be privy to his resume.

Yes, I realize FEMA was sucked into the juris auspex of Homeland Security, but I am hoping that somehow doesn't make a public official's resume suddenly a defense secret.

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

Any facists out there?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fascism is the perfect political system/religion for those on the "inside"... it pretty much sucks for everyone else...

oh and I might add that most fascists also have many leftist "twinges".... for said in crowd.

On the upside, once you join, you get a kickass uniform!

[Shade Everdark]

Thats so closed minded it sickens me. "I don't like your source, so even if they say the same thing as everyone else, I wont talk to you until you use another source." Yeah, ok.. thats so... spoiled rotten child of you...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting. I find this so hypocritical it sickens me. You're doing the same thing with Michael Moore. You don't like him, so anything he says is automatically false, spun, or doctored. Because he's a loudmouth, obnoxious leftist, you automatically dismiss him, and tell people to find "reputable" sources. Try taking some of your own medicine.

[Msterbeau]

See, thats just it.. I'm not a conservative... I'm a fence sitter. Middle of the road... My Social, economic and political views all go right down the middle.

Thats the problem... people are so damn far left or so far right that they cant even see the other side anymore. Thier view of the world had become so narrow and focused that they are blinded to everythign else... Dogma is bad, even liberal dogma.

It's sad really... Compromise is what gets things done.. and noone is willing to do it anymore.

Well then I've misjudged you. In my defence, all I have to go by so far is what I read here, and the views you express in this forum *seem* primarily conservative to me. I guess I don't see a person who defends Bush as staunchly as you do as a fence sitter. During the Clinton era, I was one of those too. I've changed a lot since then, and as a result have become more liberal in my views. (Though perhaps not as much as you might imagine.)

I think what frustrates liberals most is that Bush (And his administration) initially said he would make efforts to bridge the divide between parties and he's done the opposite.... He's put them on the defensive and guess what they've done? Regroup and fight back... entrench themselves. So yeah... no one wants to play nice anymore. And it is sad...

Before anything gets better, communication needs to improve. It reminds me of my daughter's mom sometimes. I say something, and her comprehension of what I've said is completely different then intended. It happens often and it leads to a lot of anger and frustration.

I have more thoughts in my head about this then I have time to write them... so I'll end here for now...

[Fierce Critter]

See, thats just it.. I'm not a conservative... I'm a fence sitter. Middle of the road... My Social, economic and political views all go right down the middle.

Thats the problem... people are so damn far left or so far right that they cant even see the other side anymore. Thier view of the world had become so narrow and focused that they are blinded to everythign else... Dogma is bad, even liberal dogma.

It's sad really... Compromise is what gets things done.. and noone is willing to do it anymore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(Note: I was typing this out as the previous 2-3 threads were posting, and did not see them prior to my hitting "send". I don't mean to turn this into a Dark-bashing session.)

Not to derail here, but I couldn't help but comment on this.

I've seen you mention your middle-of-the-road stance on more than one occasion now, Dark. And I can respect that if that's truly how you see yourself.

But (as far as I can recall) not once have I see you attack conservative views or conservatives - period, present evidence/facts that a conservative view was wrong or inaccurate, quote a liberal source, defend a liberal stance, concede a conservative fallacy, agree upon a proven conservative fuck-up, etc.

Yet I have seen you attack liberal views & liberals overall, present evidence/facts that a liberal view was wrong or inaccurate, quote conservative sources, defend conservative stances, go quiet when a conservative fallacy or fuckup is proven.

I really don't get where you are on the liberal side of things, ever. I see you as one of the strongest, loudest voices of conservativism on DGN. I can respect that - vive la differance. But I really seriously don't see where you toe the middle of the road in your expressed views here 'tall.

Perhaps you don't realize you come off that way. But I think others view your posts the same way.

[Brenda Starrr]

Well put. No offense to anyone else, but that is exactly what I'm seeing.

[The_Dark]

Wow.

First off

Shade... Moore isn't a News Source.. He's not a reporter. He is a private citizen with an opinion who is willing to twist the truth as far as he can to make a point. He is not affected by the same laws that news reporters are. I only said people should fact check him before taking what he said as truth. I never said not to read him at all or that there was no way he could be right. I dislike him.. I still listen to his view and give it thought. How exactly am I being a hipocrite?

Second

FC... You dont see me deffending the liberal side of things here because..well, I dont have to. Most of the people here are Liberals. The liberal view is presented here on a regular basis as being the only view a person should have and the conservative view is regularly talked about like it was on par with Facism and the like... Honestly.. this board for the most part is extremly leftwing.. so far left that the centrists are considered right wing. And really FC... You claim to be a fence sitter yourself.. what conservative view do you hold? When was the last time you defended a conservative line of thinking? Are you the pot or the kettle?

[Msterbeau]

Well put. No offense to anyone else, but that is exactly what I'm seeing.

I'm still waiting for my Chex Mix mam. *taps foot*

:whistling :whistling :whistling

[Brenda Starrr]

Now Marc! You know that this thread is about Michael Moore's thought-provoking letter. Not your desire for Chex Mix.

[Paper Hearts]

I'd like some Chex mix, too, damn it.

[Fierce Critter]

FC... You dont see me deffending the liberal side of things here because..well,  I dont have to. Most of the people here are Liberals. The liberal view is presented here on a regular basis as being the only view a person should have and the conservative view is regularly talked about like it was on par with Facism and the like... Honestly.. this board for the most part is extremly leftwing.. so far left that the centrists are considered right wing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't help but think that if you actually expressed your supposed liberal-side more, you might get your more conservative views across more successfully. The people I've come to respect when it comes to things political tend to be people who can honestly and courageously express opinions on both sides - or at least admit when they can see WHY the opposite side feels as they do and show they respect that. John McCain is an excellent non-board example. In a race between him and a liberal democrat, I might be hard-pressed to NOT vote for McCain if his democratic opponent was as wishy-washy and closed-mouthed as Kerry was.

And to come on a "goth" board and NOT expect an extremely high percentage of liberals vs. conservatives is too naive for you, Dark. I still doubt your so-called centrist stance due to the fact that you've had plenty of opportunity to say, "I more firmly hold the conservative view here, but here's where I see some merit in the liberal view." Don't you think getting conservativism taken seriously here would be more successful with a tact like that?

And really FC... You claim to be a fence sitter yourself.. what conservative view do you hold? When was the last time you defended a conservative line of thinking? Are you the pot or the kettle?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I saw this coming.

If you recall, after the 2004 election, I came out and said I could no longer take a stance as a fence sitter and that I had to admit I was growing more and more unable to see the conservative side of things. I fully accepted my liberal leanings publicly. And that's also about the time I started massively decreasing my involvement in political discussions here on DGN. I just saw how black-and-white discussions were here and decided it was a fruitless as trying to meet hardcore Wiccans and Christians in the middle.

Nevertheless, I have always at least tried to see both sides of issues, and ask both sides how they view this, that or the other. I then sit back and listen to what people had to say to see if my tendency toward liberalism keeps me from seeing something that might better guide my choices or decisions in life, particularly political. So while I may, a vast majority of the time, take a liberal side of things, that's not until after sitting back and at least CONSIDERING other views as well.

I just find that, a vast majority of time, the conservative view just doesn't mesh with my philosophies & beliefs.

That said, I have definitely learned to separate conservativatism from what it means to hold republican views. I can honestly say I probably prefer some republican views of things over things democratic. But where conservatism/liberalism come more into play, I'm definitely liberal.

[the eternal]

Well, I hate to be the one to defend the Dark on a political issue, but I DO remember him taking a principled stance on Terry Schiavo.

Of course, IMHO, both the Terry Schiavo case and the Intelligent Design debate is really a conflict of fact versus insanely ideological fiction, but at least it told me he's NOT in lockstep.

Now, I do think many of us do have a problem of not seeing where they lie politically for fear of not reaching for the glorious middle.

(Another common illusion--We're all middle class---the poor people to feel less poor- the rich people to pity themselves compared to Bill Gates and whine about needing more tax cuts)

I personally like Michael Moore and feel that he does go to great pains to show accuracy. If he didnt for Bowling for Columbine,

the NRA would have buried his ass.

And if he didnt for F 9/11, well Jesus, he took on the Bush administraion!!!!!!!

The Bush administration made a bigger stink at Bill Maher than MM for one line saying kamikaze terrorists are psychopathic nuts, not cowards. (I still dont quite understand the furor over that)

Does he spin things from his perspective? YES

Does he include the things he likes to? ABSOLUTELY

Do you always get the full picture when you're listening to him? NO

But that's the WHOLE point!!!!!

Look, I think it's safe to say that the white house press corps have for the most part been W's lapdogs, because we need to show respect

"IN THIS POST 9/11 WORLD"

Even Brian Williams said as much after the media finally took Bush to task for something (the handling of Katrina), AND he's gone ON RECORD saying that he's a fan of Rush Limbaugh!

(and BTW Rush Limbaugh has an entire book detailing some of his many lies, and he NEVER was able to refute them!)

So I look at Michael Moore as a fresh perspective.

We dont see people like him on the left very much.

Brash

Opinionated

Polarizing

Entertaining

They're all over the right.

Air America is struggling, while Pat Robertson is calling for the assassination of another world leader.

And guess what gang....

If Michael Moore EVER has a tenth the audience that Robertson does, he'll be a lucky man.

You may not like him, g-d bless him for being here.

I wish we had the fairness doctrine (Reagan destroyed it)

so EVERY point of view had a chance to be heard, like it used to.

I wish the Telecommunications Act hadn't passed

which allowed one corporation to own multiple media outlets in the same market so

almost all of the radio is Clear Channel AND

almost all of print is Gannett AND

a huge chunk of TV media/print is owned by FOX/Murdoch

But it ISNT.

And for all the woe is me whining from conservatives about the liberal media it's really a CORPORATE media

that would like to make everything sanitized, safe, and easy to swallow.

Now this is not necessarily a conservative thing (except in the case of FOX news which IS in fact run by former right wing operative Roger Ailes)

but it's damn boring and not that informative.

If Clinton were president tomorrrow, we'd

STILL

have a media wagging their tongue at JLO as if it's a major story and the full truth about

things like Abu Ghraib would never come out ( even if it was on a Dems watch)

So, the great thing about Moore is that he

gives a different perspective

throws out at least a few truths you never heard before AND

he puts his propaganda right out there!!!!!!!

EVERYONE wants to attack Moore for being a propaganda machine, but guess what?

when you have a major blunder (not Katrina spec. pick what you like)

and the media puts as their top story

Laura Bush said Kanye West is disgusting

THAT is propaganda TOO

We just DONT want to look at the Bush admin. as a propaganda machine

AND we CERTAINLY dont want to view the media as his (often) willing accomplices.

I mean how is Laura Bush's opinion on the top of my browser?????????

Who cares? OF COURSE she defends her husband!

And again,

this is a change in media thing, not a conservative thing (but lest we forget who spoon feeds this tripe to the different outlets.)

I suppose if you really hate Michael Moore, then what he says in the way he says it will offend you.

But you know what, he's not one of those long winded intellectuals like Noam Chomsky

that are good for a collegial left-wing circle jerk about

how the worlds going to hell and everyone but them are stupid

He's down to earth

He's entertaining

and after I see scores of biled brash blond bitches battle over who can be the most insipid and conservative

he's a breath of fresh air.

Oh yes, and middle be damned, I'm a proud progressive.

I dont feel like the GOP was to my liking but it moved to the right

I dont feel like the Dems were in my corner, then fleed (though at some point they were castrated)

I believe that everyone should get a fair shot in this country, and it becomes harder every year.

I feel that by deregulating everything,

AND

putting the power of the media into an ever shrinking number of hands (-THAT last statement is FACT BTW)

AND

by centralizing power more and more

AND

by slashing the welfare system (thank you Bill Clinton)

while giving more giveaways to the ever merging super corporations (and thank you BUSH ENERGY BILL)

we are moving toward SOCIALISM FOR THE RICH and POWERFUL! (before you scoff, I came here from IA-there are no fucking farmers anymore-it's all g-ddamn ADM)

(how this ties into my argument-if you wondering-is at some point, Moore could yell all he wanted but no one would be able to hear him

AND YET....)

IF

there is a CHANCE that a voice for dissent in this ever-homogenizing country can succeed

I say kudos!!!!!!!!!

Because at the heart of it, Im a capitalist

and call me crazy but

I LIKE DIFFERING VIEWS

and I think any good poker player can tell you

it's hard to have a fair game when you're dealing with a stacked deck

My .02

FLAME AWAY

:grin :grin :grin :fear :fear :fear :fear :fear :fear

[Shade Everdark]

Moore isn't a news source, and neither is the FEMA website.

Why do people even pay attention to Moore anymore? His "letters" and other public statements are based on half-truths at best. Yet, so many people just buy into what he says as if he actually knew what truth was. Come on people, Fact Checking a Liberal will not hurt you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That sounds quite like an insinuation that people shouldn't listen to Michale Moore, to me.