Political/Religious/Gov't/Economic Structure

[Marblez]

This is a runaway topic, to discuss the actual intent of this topic, go here:

http://www.detroitgothic.net/index.php?showtopic=5439

However, feel free to continue the other discussions as it has evolved.

  Paper Hearts said:

I've been pondering how the party of the Christian right (the republicans) are such great Darwinists, in practice, where as the supposedly morally devoid parties (the left) are actually the parties of charity.

The republicans as capitalists, are all about survival of the fittest and that is Darwinism and also the opposite of what Christ was into. The Christan right would make perfect atheists.

The people that are framed as worldly (as if it were something bad), the left, actually believe in socialism which is a system of charity based on an idea brotherhood-this is Christ's message exactly. The "secular" party are more fit as the party of christianity.

I thought that thisa was a very interesting observation. It deserves it's own thread.

As a Christian, I am 100% for the brotherhood of man and the need for charitable giving - but I don't believe that this should be a task for government. In my opinion, charity and humanitarian issues should be handled on a regional, human, voluntary basis as opposed to being handled by the state/federal government.

When churches intervene or are asked for assistance for say, a family in financial crisis, the person isn't likely to just receive a monthly check and sent on their merry way. The whole of the problem is generally looked at and there is attempt to heal the family through offers of work, donations of money/food, assistance on a spiritual level to get through the time of crisis...

More often than through government assistance, this approach leads to a feeling of social indebtedness and self reliance as opposed to one of (for lack of a better term) lazy expectation.

What do you think?

[Paper Hearts]

Religion is irrelevant when it comes to questions of government (or should be), which is one reason why I side with the Left.

The Left is also the side of peace-another thing Christ was into.

The Left is also the side of equality-One more thing that Christ thought was good.

The Left is also the side of environmentalism and conservationism-the Bible says god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, for it. If God loves the world that much, then again, the left is the side of god.

Personally, I do not believe that Jesus Christ was (is) the son of God. In fact, I do not BELIEVE that there is a god or gods, at all. However, If there is, I do not believe it is the Christian god and what's more, If there is a god, I do not think that it is important.

I believe that 'man' has a responsibility unto itself.

I also believe that the vast majority of people are so shit that they need to be forced into charity.

Seems to me that the right has no problems trying to force their religion on everyone, so why not force the principles (like charity) on people as well?

Or is religion just a tool they use to get votes from dumb people?

[The_Dark]

Republicans = Christian Right

Democrats = Christian Left

"people that are framed as worldly" by who?

We dont live in a Socialist country.. they dont work in large numbers. People are too greedy.

[Paper Hearts]

  The_Dark said:

Republicans = Christian Right

Democrats = Christian Left

"people that are framed as worldly" by who?

We dont live in a Socialist country.. they dont work in large numbers. People are too greedy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Such as "they don't share our family values" That type of framing. It's refers to the Calvinist ideals that all Americans are supposed to enjoy, accoring to the right.

So Americans have to chose between a party that does not share their family values (the democrats) yet practices them and a party who does share their family values but none the less does not practice them (the republicans).

Socialism works throughout most of the world. And If greed is the measure of a successful political system then we have been a total failure from the begining, as capitalists.

[Fierce Critter]

Actually, I watched a documentary on socialism last weekend.

Socialism tends to fail about everywhere it's tried. The most successful example of true, successful socialism in practice was the Israeli Kibbutz system. But in recent years, kibbutz members have been abandoning the true socialist ideals for very capitalist ones.

Don't get me wrong - I'm probably socialist at heart, as is my father. But from what I saw of that documentary and world events, it's just doomed to fail due to basic human nature.

[Paper Hearts]

  Fierce Critter said:

Actually, I watched a documentary on socialism last weekend.

Socialism tends to fail about everywhere it's tried. The most successful example of true, successful socialism in practice was the Israeli Kibbutz system. But in recent years, kibbutz members have been abandoning the true socialist ideals for very capitalist ones.

Don't get me wrong - I'm probably socialist at heart, as is my father. But from what I saw of that documentary and world events, it's just doomed to fail due to basic human nature.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you are saying that 90% of Europe has a failed form of government? Canada too? Australia? New Zealand?

I don't see it.

The truth is that without socialist ideas such as social security, our own system would have crumbled years ago.

I don't think that the measure of a society's worth is found in their average, medium income per house. To me (coincidentally, to Christ, as well) the measure of a society's worth is found instead in the distance between it's wealthiest citizens and it's least fortunate.

We've a larger gap here than Ireland. We've a larger gap than Great Britain, etc, etc. Therefore, it is we who have failed as a system, not the socialists. And to any Christian I don't see how it can be any different.

[Marblez]

  Paper Hearts said:

We've a larger gap here than Ireland. We've a larger gap than Great Britain, etc, etc. Therefore, it is we who have failed as a system, not the socialists. And to any Christian I don't see how it can be any different.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Problems with America (in my opinion):

1. Greed, egotism and lack of social responsibility

2. Lazy Expectation, handouts encourage people to waste resources with expectation that the world/communiy "owes" them.

3. Secularism (is that a word), not enough people have something to believe in which teaches faith in anything but the almighty dollar. People have got to have a reason to live a good life or they begin to devalue life in general.

Admittedly, knowing little if anything about socialism, I believe that my opinions of Americas problems #2 and #3 would be exascerbated by a "more" socialist society. So... lets not go there, k?

[The_Dark]

I'm not sure what world you live in.. but all those countrys are Democracys and none are Socialist in the real world. The Europeon Union is close... but even that is failing as time goes on.

You seem to be painting with a really big brush on the Democrats and the Republicans.

[Head Wreck]

the most socialist country in its infrastucture at the moment in europe is britan. and compared to the rest of europe where thier structures to me seem to be the ideal mix of capitalism and socialism is failing

within the union (britain is a "sort off member" but we've been holding back and thank god we have)there are countries which have gotten greedy and refuse to drop the subsidies set up to recover after the war. and now we have newer countries in the union with less GNP are having to pay into this only for the larger proportions to go to germany, france, etc (and yes britain too). this coupled with the introduction of a single currency is destabilising the distribution of wealth.

france refuses to let its subsideries go. britain also refuses and germany. britain has a average subsidary but france and germany have the larger (both being smashed to rubble in WWII)

things are going bad due to greed not ideals

unfortunatly its politicians nature (we've all established politicians are not real people anyway)

[phee]

  The_Dark said:

I'm not sure what world you live in.. but all those countrys are Democracys and none are Socialist in the real world. The Europeon Union is close... but even that is failing as time goes on.

You seem to be painting with a really big brush on the Democrats and the Republicans.

In my humble opinion... we live in an Oligarcy, as well as most of the world. I cannot think of any society that has been truelly democratic (or socialist). People with money and power will always have control over "politics" untill human nature itself changes.

And I must agree that to lump "Republicans" and "Democrats" into groups such as this discussion (as well as most political discussions on this board) really limits the true scope of things. I myself tend to polarize things in my brain when I am doing analysis (Right/Wrong, Greedy/Genorus) but the world is not binary.

I really wish that our current president was not so blatent with his mistakes, and would actually admit some wrong doing some time. I don't think Clinton was any better except for he at least tried to appear not quite so arrogent, as Bush seems to.

Too many people died in New Orleans... And something needs to change, and it would be nice, and very unlikely if someone had the balls to step up and take responsibility.

The Iraq war, should not have happened at all (or at least in the way that it did).

And more to the point... A politician that seems to believe that God is speaking to him personally, and that acts as if what he does is directly pleasing said God. That is frightening to me, because along these lines, he actually believes that he is incapable of error, and that those who disagree with him are catagorically wrong. Or that it is a ruse to frighten/control/gain $ for his own personal gain.... I am not sure which is worse.

[Shade Everdark]

  The_Dark said:

I'm not sure what world you live in.. but all those countrys are Democracys and none are Socialist in the real world. The Europeon Union is close... but even that is failing as time goes on.

You seem to be painting with a really big brush on the Democrats and the Republicans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dictionary.com - Socialism

Dictionary.com - Democracy

Dictionary.com - Republic

Wikipedia - Socialism

Wikipedia - Democracy

Wikipedia - Republic

I'd like to know where in there, do you see that Socialism and Democracy or Republicanism are mutually exclusive.

Perhaps it's time to come out of the 1950's. The House Unamerican Activities Committee is long dead, and my fellow Wisconsinite, Joe McCarthy, with it.

[the eternal]

Interesting argument.

You all make truisms.

An atheist/muslim/buddhist/pagan will NEVER get the support of either party.

I support the Democratic party, because the GOP scares the shit out of me, not because my true heart lies there.

Also, there have been idealist progressives like Paul Wellstone (still miss him) who stood up for the little guy.

That said, part of his popularity was how hard he fought for small businesspeople.

Very capitalist in the TRUEST sense of the word. Free market.

The GOP isnt really about capitalism anymore.

They're about mergers and monopolies, which is corporate socialism.

A few big mouths get relatively equal mammoth sized slices of pie, while the rest of us are fighting for scraps

( No, I'm serious. Go look on the DGN classifieds right now. No one should be crying because they cant find an $8/hr job)

Big corporations like Wal-mart don't want competition, they want domination.

Socialism COULD work, but it never will for 2 reasons.

1 There are too many opportunities for abuse of power. Oh, it's SUPPOSED to be about the withering away of the state, so everyone can have an equal say, but Jesus,

how realistic is that?

What Marblez is talking about is Utopian Socialism. Socialism on a smaller scale, not as dependent on technology or other forces.

Grow your own food.

ACTUALLY take a village to raise a child.

I've been on a kibbutz in Israel.

It's cool.

And yes, they're going away.

Why?

Because we like shit. We want to get a walkman, and buy groceries and have our own space.

A few of us could get together today. All of us on this thread. Buy a ranch in Montana. Be dependent on the land and water. But most of us dont want that.

Now Marx's version was keep your house and your PSP, but somehow work together equally on everything else, and make the same amount of money.

which brings me to my next point

2. The whole world needs to be socialist for it to work.

How the hell can you trade when everything is interchangeable and costs about the same? How do you keep jealousy down, when you know that you're a doctor and you make the same as a janitor?

Especially considering how well the doctor is doing across the border 10 miles away??

A socialist economy is not compatible with a capitalist economy.

Both of these problems happened in Russia.

Lenin was too ideological and to kick start the "socialist" economy, started paying a certain class of workers more thereby giving them more power, though not nearly as much as him.

And Stalin was out of his fucking mind.

Now what goes on in Europe, I guess you could call Democratic Socialism.

Take a capitalist society.

Reform it from the inside.

Promote social programs to give everyone an equal share.

Unfortunately, things are not quite that liberal.

And inequality still abounds.

But in many ways, it's much better than here.

I agree with Marblez that just giving away things is the wrong message for our country.

That's why I hate the GOP so much.

Exxon Mobil is the most profitable company on the planet. The oil industry is making money hand over fist. Yet somehow they were eligible for billions of dollars in tax breaks.

Homeowners in Livingston County do nothing but complain about the evil of millages yet they're given free money just for owning a house.

It's supposed to "trickle down" into more jobs, but they usually end up going overseas anyway to take advantage of child labor.

Marblez, I want to bring up a quote from "flaming liberal" Colin Powell

Everyone should try to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. The only problem is some of them dont have boots--paraphrase

We have a society that greatly rewards the rich with the best schools, the best housing, the best food, and breaks everywhere you go. Yet, poor people are told to go to hell. (Hell/Highland Park, same difference, right?)

We dont all start at the same point.

And it's a fact that most people stay in the class they were born into.

Its an unofficial caste system.

If: everyone got equal access to a quality education

everyone had the same living conditions and lack of pollution

everyone had equal access to quality medical care

everyone had the same nourishment needed for growth and intelligence

then a social safety system would be unnecessary

But they don't.

And the piddly amount we give for welfare doesnt even begin to cover THE BASIC needs for children.

There is a reason why African Americans dont live as long as White Americans.

And it's not because they're any less intelligent.

I grew up with a lot of stupid people in the suburbs. But I guarantee you, 90% of them are making more than me right now.

They had tutors and connections that got them where they are and will keep them there.

If we dont give a little to the least fortunate, they arent going to have a chance in hell of ever succeeding.

The sad part is, for the most part, they still don't.

The only way of truly having a shot at achieving equality in this country is spreading the wealth from taxes equally to every school

( free secondary education is a handout we all took advantage of, you know)

and taxing the rich what they could easily afford

FUN FACT: Did you know that the nauseating salaries rich people make ARENT even their primary income.

Yep.

We tax them so little in contrast to what they can afford to live on comfortably, that they reinvest enough of it in the market , so that their primary income is ACTUALLY the growth of excess wealth they reinvested AFTER they paid all their bills.

Tell that to someone in a shelter.

The only way of truly having a shot at achieving equality in this country (cont.) is if

quality health care is available to all

and food programs could cover 3 good meals for those who need it.

If that happened, then there would be a chance that everyone would at least have the basic foundation to succeed.

Then we could all duke it out in the open market.

That's not socialism.

That's capitalism in its truest form.

Just my .02

[phee]

As I said... Oligarcy

[The_Dark]

Again people are putting words in my mouth and singleing me out. You know what

Fuck you alot

Fuck all of you

I'm tired of your group think.

[phee]

I actually have been agreeing with many of your points Dark... can we please keep it civil, and not do the name calling thing? I think we were actually having a pretty good discussion.

[Shade Everdark]

If you're referring to group think in the sense that most of us here tend to share the same general views, you're probably right. The goth community as a whole is pretty liberal, and, one might say, leftist.

On the other hand, in most respects, you seem to espouse center-right conservatism, which is really where most of America tends to stand.

Question of perspective, really.

Who has the most group in their think?

[Msterbeau]

Cool thread. Thanks Marblez.

It's something I really didn't want to get into in the Michael Moore thread but it's hard to avoid: Peoples political leanings and views are hugely complex and have thier basis in a variety of areas including, religion, social issues, business, government (obviously), parenting, etc etc etc... If you consider all the possible permutations of how we might evolve from children to adults in these various aspects of life, doesn't it seem odd that over time we've boiled things down to two basic philosphies? And that those philosophies have over a short time, gelled into polarizing, us vs. them sorts of arguments from which there seems to be little common ground?

For instance. I saw this posted on SG today. It's a letter to the editor of a small midwest newspaper:

"Editor, Times-Union:

We cannot thumb our nose at God and not expect judgment.

How have we done this? By saying we don't want you in our schools. We don't want your commandments on display in public places. We want to live by our own rules.

The homosexual says, I want a different lifestyle. He sent AIDS but you keep right on. AIDS has killed millions. Some churches have even ordained homosexual ministers.

Abortion -How many babies are killed every year? There is a commandment that says "Thou Shalt Not Kill." How many people are murdered in this country every year -three or four times the number killed in Iraq since the war began.

9-11 was a wake-up call to repentance. God gave us a short time to see what would happen - no repentance.

2004 - three hurricanes hit Florida. The worse disaster to hit our country.

2005 - Katrina hits our country.

Don't you think someone is trying to tell us something?

Here is some scripture you might like to read: Judgment -Revelations 14:7; Repent -Revelations 9:21.

You haven't seen anything yet -Revelations 16:18-21

How do I, as a person who does not believe in this person's god, nor the bible, even begin to try and have a dialogue with them?

The same thing applies to the subjects I mentioned above. We are fundamentally worlds apart. How are we going to continue to be part of one country when this huge divide exists?

Maybe it's not as bad as I think... can anybody show me different? That the numbers aren't as divided as they seem to be?

[Guest Game of Chance]

  Msterbeau said:

Cool thread.  Thanks Marblez.

It's something I really didn't want to get into in the Michael Moore thread but it's hard to avoid:  Peoples political leanings and views are hugely complex and have thier basis in a variety of areas including, religion, social issues, business, government (obviously), parenting, etc etc etc...    If you consider all the possible permutations of how we might evolve from children to adults in these various aspects of life, doesn't it seem odd that over time we've boiled things down to two basic philosphies?  And that those philosophies have over a short time, gelled into polarizing, us vs. them sorts of arguments from which there seems to be little common ground?

For instance.  I saw this posted on SG today.  It's a letter to the editor of a small midwest newspaper:

"Editor, Times-Union:

We cannot thumb our nose at God and not expect judgment.

How have we done this? By saying we don't want you in our schools. We don't want your commandments on display in public places. We want to live by our own rules.

The homosexual says, I want a different lifestyle. He sent AIDS but you keep right on. AIDS has killed millions. Some churches have even ordained homosexual ministers.

Abortion -How many babies are killed every year? There is a commandment that says "Thou Shalt Not Kill." How many people are murdered in this country every year -three or four times the number killed in Iraq since the war began.

9-11 was a wake-up call to repentance. God gave us a short time to see what would happen - no repentance.

2004 - three hurricanes hit Florida. The worse disaster to hit our country.

2005 - Katrina hits our country.

Don't you think someone is trying to tell us something?

Here is some scripture you might like to read: Judgment -Revelations 14:7; Repent -Revelations 9:21.

You haven't seen anything yet -Revelations 16:18-21

How do I, as a person who does not believe in this person's god, nor the bible, even begin to try and have a dialogue with them?  

The same thing applies to the subjects I mentioned above.  We are fundamentally worlds apart.   How are we going to continue to be part of one country when this huge divide exists?   

Maybe it's not as bad as I think... can anybody show me different?  That the numbers aren't as divided as they seem to be?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Two things.

1. There are many more than just two basic philosophies. People usually pick the politcal party that relates to their viewpoint the most. Or because that's what Mom and Dad voted for. There is polarity because there are two politcal parties in this country that have access to most of the political dollars in this country.

2. Its not as bad as you think. Most people who call themselves Christian, certainly are not of the fundamentalist variety.

Try relating to people merely as people and leaving religion right out. You may be surprised at what you find.

[Msterbeau]

  Game of Chance said:

Two things.

1.  There are many more than just two basic philosophies.  People usually pick the politcal party that relates to their viewpoint the most.  Or because that's what Mom and Dad voted for. There is polarity because there are two politcal parties in this country that have access to most of the political dollars in this country.

2.  Its not as bad as you think.  Most people who call themselves Christian, certainly are not of the fundamentalist variety.

Try relating to people merely as people and leaving religion right out.  You may be surprised at what you find.

I know there aren't just two... maybe the I should have asked why it *Seems* like there's only two? Ya know?

As for leaving religion out... you have to leave a lot of other things out too. Often the basic philisophical differences are apparent in ma facets of life.

I suppose you could always stick with talking about booze and the opposite sex... :whistling

[Fierce Critter]

  Msterbeau said:

I suppose you could always stick with talking about booze and the opposite sex...  :whistling

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm female. My favorite booze is Fighting Cock Bourbon.

[insert joke relating booze/opposite sex/cock here]

[The_Dark]

I know I am going to regret this, but I cant help but torespond.. even though at the moment a few of you sicken me with your narrow views of things.

phee.. though I was not civil.. I did not call anyone a name.. I told Shade to fuck off along with the rest of the group think collective.

shade - just because your all closeminded in the same way doesn't make you any less close minded. and in case you were not being an ass and actually dont have the ability to comprehend what I posted... I didn't at anytime say that Democracy and Socialism were mutally exclusive.. I said Socialism does not work.. the same thing everyone else with a clue says. I also pointed out that every country that has tried it, has failed. So which is it? were you being an ass or have you lost your reading comprehension?

to all of you.. until your open to possibly making some form of sacrafice.. nothing is ever going to change. The country is polerized for a reason. WE, as a people, dont teach our children how to affect change. We dont teach them to negotiate a mutally beneficial resolution.. we teach them to fight for what they feel is right.. even if it means loosing everything.

It seems like there are only two partys for a reason.. I have pointed it out before and been ignored as I prolly will this time.. Congress over the last 75 years has enacted many changes to the laws. Those changes have systomatically eliminated any chance of a third viable party or even one really rich guy running for president. Campaign Finance Law... noone really reads those laws.. they dont think they affact the average man... they do. They elimnate choice or the possibility of choice. The laws are setup now so that, yeah, you can have all the partys you want.. but unless they are REpublican or Democrat.. they cany have any money to run a campaign.

A good example of whats wrong with this country... Msterbeau

He doesn't want Freedom of Religion.. He wants Freedom from it. no wait.. thats not quite right.. He wants Freedom from Christianity. Every other religion is fine. He cant figure out how to talk to someone who beleives differently than him... so that person shouldn't be in the same country as him. and I'm the narrow minded right winger... un-huh. Learn Tolerance, you'll get along with people better.

on another note.. One country in recent history tried to level things out. They changed the laws around.. and tried to redistribute the wealth. Taxed the fuck right out of the rich and gave the poor every entitlement they could.... All the rich people left and the economic system collapsed. The US bailed them out, ofcourse, and they have since found a less Socialist way of doing things. You might know the country .. New Zealand... look it up. It wasn't really that long ago and their economy has never really recovered.

[Msterbeau]

  The_Dark said:

I know I am going to regret this, but I cant help but torespond.. even though at the moment a few of you sicken me with your narrow views of things.

phee.. though I was not civil.. I did not call anyone a name.. I told Shade to fuck off along with the rest of the group think collective.

shade - just because your all closeminded in the same way doesn't make you any less close minded. and in case you were not being an ass and actually dont have the ability to comprehend what I posted... I didn't at anytime say that Democracy and Socialism were mutally exclusive.. I said Socialism does not work.. the same thing everyone else with a clue says. I also pointed out that every country that has tried it, has failed. So which is it? were you being an ass or have you lost your reading comprehension?

to all of you.. until your open to possibly making some form of sacrafice.. nothing is ever going to change. The country is polerized for a reason. WE, as a people, dont teach our children how to affect change. We dont teach them to negotiate a mutally beneficial resolution.. we teach them to fight for what they feel is right.. even if it means loosing everything.

It seems like there are only two partys for a reason.. I have pointed it out before and been ignored as I prolly will this time.. Congress over the last 75 years has enacted many changes to the laws. Those changes have systomatically eliminated any chance of a third viable party or even one really rich guy running for president.  Campaign Finance Law... noone really reads those laws.. they dont think they affact the average man... they do. They elimnate choice or the possibility of choice. The laws are setup now so that, yeah, you can have all the partys you want.. but unless they are REpublican or Democrat.. they cany have any money to run a campaign.

A good example of whats wrong with this country... Msterbeau

He doesn't want Freedom of Religion.. He wants Freedom from it. no wait.. thats not quite right.. He wants Freedom from Christianity. Every other religion is fine. He cant figure out how to talk to someone who beleives differently than him... so that person shouldn't be in the same country as him. and I'm the narrow minded right winger... un-huh. Learn Tolerance, you'll get along with people better.

on another note.. One country in recent history tried to level things out. They changed the laws around.. and tried to redistribute the wealth. Taxed the fuck right out of the rich and gave the poor every entitlement they could.... All the rich people left and the economic system collapsed. The US bailed them out, ofcourse, and they have since found a less Socialist way of doing things. You might know the country .. New Zealand... look it up. It wasn't really that long ago and their economy has never really recovered.

Thanks for putting words in MY mouth Dark. You SHOULD regret opening your yours.... seeing as how you told us all to fuck off because you percieved that people here did the same to you.

Now. Please show me the error of my ways mr. perfect. Demonstrate for me how I'm supposed to discuss religion with a guy that says some of my best friends should be DEAD. How do I even begin that??? I open my mouth and I'm fairly certain someone like this gentleman will quote me passeges from the Bible that tell me I'm wrong and I'm a sinner. Oops. I don't believe in sin so how am I wrong sir? I did talk to a lady last year who wanted to give me Christian literature. I respectfully declined because I belong to a congrgation already. She inquired about what it was. We had a nice discussion... I can talk with a person like that, even if ultimately neither of us changed the others mind on a single point. But the guy I quoted above. It ain't gonna happen, and you fucking know it.... so don't sit there and call me closed-minded. AGAIN.

And you sense some animosity on my part towards Christians in particular? Very perceptive of you.. I was raised Catholic and I grew to dispise THEIR intolereance and hypocricy. I experienced it firsthand. I think I have a right to judge the religion harshly.(Accepting that not everyone who practices it...perhaps not even the majority, deserve the same) Be that as it may... it doesn't mean I want them out of the country. It means I want them to keep their fucking religion out of my life and my childrens lives unless WE choose to have it. This bullshit of the country being founded on Christianity and therefore government should have Christian principles, ten commandments in courthouses, prayer in school..blah blah blah...is horseshit. The religion I practice acknowledges positive aspects of pretty much every religion in the world. Why won't others do that? Yeah sure... some pay lip service to the idea... but that's about it. It's not in their best interests to do so... They pretend to play nice with others. That's about it. You want a starting place for this country's problems. There's a good one.

As for the lack of choice in elections. I couldn't agree more . Not only for the reasons you cite but because the two party system forces people to take a side instead of picking a canidate they truly believe in. Not that it'll ever happen but parties should be banished. The internet and other technologies available today make it fairly easy to provide a medium for people to become EQUALLY informed about canidates. Abolish all contributions of any kind...

You know... You asked me today about if I try finding ways to dislike you. I'd ask yourself the same question with respect to the whole group. I think almost everyone in this particular thread has been quite civil. Yet you seem to be lashing out like we're all attacking you, which I don't think is the case. You said yourself today that you CHOOSE to defend some of the positions that you do. Knowing that the vast majority here are more liberal then not, you kinda have to expect to be in the minority when you defend the conservative cause..... I think the phrase "Get out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat" applies. And before you go accusing me of wanting you off the board, I'm not. I'm suggesting that if it frustrates you to argue with a bunch of liberals, maybe you shouldn't be doing that. There's plenty of other less contraversal threads in this place. I'm not sure why I come here (Here being the political/religious threads) sometimes... it causes more aggro then I real need at the moment.

I'm done.

[The_Dark]

I dont know what to tell you about the Christians who like to point out that your going to burn in hell for all eternity. Most of the Christians I know dont like to rub it in, so to speak. You want to die a sinner, thats your choice, your soul. If you don't beleive in hell or sin... How is that truly hurting you? What real harm have they done? Smile and Nod... it works for me.

You want seperation of Church and State.. your going to have a hard time. It doesn't exists. Not in this country.. never has. The constitution only says that Congress cant pass a law that puts one religion before another. The left has been pushing hard for it over the last 30 years.. and they have made some reather decent strides.. but all that work is starting to fall apart. The vast majority of Americans do want religion in their lives... not all are Christian either. Muslims, Jewish, Hindus.. they all want to be able to pray when they want. We need to get past our emotionally scared childhoods and get on with our lives. You can pass all the laws you want.. doesn't change history... doesn't change the fact that this country was founded by Christians and our basic laws were founded on Christian beleifs. It doesn't change the fact that I have the freedom to practice my religion any damn where I want and so do you.

Having a prayer time in school for example. How is that bad? How is setting 5min a day aside to let people pray in what ever way they want a bad thing? Who is that hurting? I'm not saying it has to be a Christian prayer service.. many religions pray before having a meal. Muslims have set times they are sopposed to pray through out the day. How is that hurting you? You dont have to pray in the same way.. go hug a tree or what ever it is you do... or just read a book.. and let others be.

See... Thats a compromise. It would make the Christian right happy and it wouldn't force anything one anyone. Now would it favor any religion over another... which means it's constitutionally legal...

I'll say this again and maybe someone will pay attention this time:

WE, as a people, dont teach our children how to affect change. We dont teach them to negotiate a mutally beneficial resolution.. we teach them to fight for what they feel is right.. even if it means loosing everything.

btw.. I didn't say you were closed minded. I said you were narrow minded and good example of the type of thinking that is keeping any progress from getting done.

and my fuck you was aimed at Shade... though he was being civil... he was still trying to belittle me rather than actaully address what I was talking about. I thought I had made that clear.

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

I was gonna chime in on this.... but since I have a political science degree (among others) and taught/tutored a comparative religion course (last minute deal when a professor fell and smashed his head on the pavement and went all loony one winter)... I know better. <smile> Ill just switch over into psychology (a degree i did not finish) and state that both politicians and religious "leaders" share a commonality.... they think they know whats best for you and would love to limit your decisions/freedom... and make you pay for it through taxation and tithing... I dont trust/like any of them any more than I "trust/like" Snoop Dog. I would not let him tend my weed patch (if I did drugs) and I sure as hell dont like letting politicians or religous leaders "tending" my rights, freedom, or money.

....Ok Im done.

[the eternal]

I cant tell you how happy I am again for ranting in a controversial thread and not singled out for it. (this should change my luck)

The Dark, you make a fantastic point about the 2 party system, one that anyone on the left would be proud of.

I've always respected the fact that although I feel that many of your views are conservative, they're not the result of some party line.

It seems that modern day "conservatives" take their cues from the lastest talking points memo from the Bush administration, no matter how hypocritical that may be.

(ex. "Bush's against nation building. So are we AND have always been. He's suddenly FOR nation building. So are we AND have always been,")

:confused :confused

And I agree with you that socialism can't work. I detailed in my last post. And although my views are closest to PH, I sided with you on BOTH the christian=GOP OR Dem AND the fact that true socialism is nowhere.

PLUS, I'd like to add that although I may not be as combative, like Rozzlyn and a few others, I have views that differentiate myself from almost everyone on here. But their mine and Ill always defend them.

I like Michael Moore. DGN seems to be pretty split on him, even leaning AGAINST him. Progressives (like me) love him, but most liberals hate him and think he's too brash and dogmatic. The only reason you see them at his premieres are they can respect his populist appeal that few intellectual liberals possess.

So, I dont know where you put me,

a proud lefty who will stand up and ardently defend YOUR status as an independent against the liberals who are to the right of me.

But I dont think you could pigeonhole me as part of groupthink.

Oh, and one more thing.

I have PLENTY of problems with Chavez. Like Castro, Mao, and countless other left-wing leaders, he stomps dissent with an iron fist in the name of the "people" (perhaps they all read what happened to the jacobins of the French Revolution when they got too slack)

AND YET, although Venezuela was struggling like many "developing nations" instead of taking the World Bank's "handout" and thereby committing to allow American companies to come in and exploit the country for cheap labor and be put in eternal debt that can NEVER be repaid (see anything Bono does when he takes off his shades) and are forced to export everything instead of using it to clothe and feed their people, here's what he did.

He refused the World Bank's "help" focused on social services for the poor, and rebuilding the country's industries, and now they're maybe the most successful "socialist" country in the world.

And that pisses the hell out of the US, since they wont play ball with us.

Robertson, if you remember, is so angry, he called for Chavez's assassination.

(What many of you dont know is how much of an ardent capitalist Robertson is with MANY monied interests he wants to get a foothold in Venezuela with. He's actually quite the mogul. It's a bit of a well-kept secret. The many has money coming out of his ears. He's been under investigation several times for diverting his missionary planes to do diamond mining using the funds from his flock)

Argentina on the other hand, DID take the World Bank's funds and will NEVER get out of debt.

Oh, and here's another thing.

The whole "most christians are accepting of others, liberal, etc"

I wonder if these are the ones you know.

Here's why I say it.

WE may think Robertson/Falwell are on the fringes, but guess what

They're MORE popular than ever.

There are many reasons why Kerry lost, but for those of you that want to attack Nader for killing Gore in FL, the far right christian conservatives put Bush over the top in OH.

Millions of voter guides are distributed every 2 years for elections.

The far right has a VERY willing ear in Pres Bush.

And let's face it, when you turn on the TV and see all those evangelists they're of that new political far right wing ilk.

There's Focus on the Family.

The leader said Spongebob is gay. He's fucking nuts.

And he has a following in the millions!!!!!!

Then there are the Superchurches. They have been cropping up everywhere and are growing by leaps and bounds every day while the mainline protestant churchs are fading away.

Ive actually researched this last thing.

In Lansing there's a monstrosity called Mt Hope Church. Last Hallowen, they got into hot water for advertising a "family friendly" haunted house.

Inside there were Catholic priests literally fucking alter boys, third trimester abortions performed with blood spurting everywhere, AND THOSE were the MILD rooms.

Kids were cryind and parents were outraged!

Theyre nuts over there!

And guess what.

Their following is probably bigger than all the mainline protestant churches in Lansing COMBINED.

THIS in liberal, Kerry-loving, Lansing for chrissakes!

I still have tremendous respect for you Dark.

You think independently, even if many of your views are shared by other conservatives.

I hope you can appreciate that.