Politics

[Homicidalheathen]

Seems to be the only safe subject around here these days so here goes. Join, write letters.......hit the pavement....do something......other than just sit and pitch a bitch.

Anthony D. Romero, ACLU" <Executive_Director@ACLU.org> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert

To: rite4it@yahoo.com

Subject: Help ACLU resist faith-based power grab

From our schools to our courtrooms, religious extremists have their sights set on your liberties.

The ACLU is standing up for religious liberty and basic freedoms.

Stand with us -- Join today.

Dear Windy,

Yesterday, a trial over "intelligent design" began in Pennsylvania. This is one of those critical cases that can help define the meaning of religious freedom for years to come.

Religious extremists are seeking a powerful new tactic for injecting religion into our public schools. With the support and partnership of ACLU members nationwide, we are doing everything in our power to make sure they don't succeed -- and we need you to join us.

Our case contends that intelligent design has no place in science classes as an alternative to the theory of evolution. It is nothing more than a Trojan horse to smuggle religion into our public schools.

As The New York Times explained, "With the new political empowerment of religious conservatives, challenges to evolution are popping up with greater frequency in schools, courts and legislatures."

If you read a newspaper or watch the news, you hear it everywhere -- a vision for a faith-based America. "Faith-based" federal spending. "Faith-based" federal judges. "Faith-based" federal laws. "Faith-based" constitutional amendments. "Faith-based" public education.

These aren't just concepts. They're budgets, nominees and legislation. And they are being implemented right now, as I write to you.

Powerful political forces have set their sights on anyone who chooses not to live by their narrow definition of "morality." They want to turn America into a country governed by their interpretation of the Bible, serviced by faith-based, taxpayer-funded institutions and guided by religious doctrine against which neither citizens nor judges should dare to speak up.

The ACLU is leading the challenge to this narrow vision for a faith-based America and standing up for freedom in Washington and in communities across the nation as we work to defend reproductive rights, free speech, equal rights for lesbians and gay men, and religious liberty and tolerance.

But to succeed, we need your help.

Please become a card-carrying member of the ACLU today. Join us in resisting efforts to undermine our individual rights and our religious freedoms wherever they surface -- from the classrooms of Pennsylvania to the White House.

Together, we'll stand up for freedom with every ounce of energy we have. Thank you for your support.

Sincerely,

Anthony D. Romero

Executive Director

American Civil Liberties Union

To find out more about this case and the intelligent design issue, go to www.aclu.org/evolution.

[Msterbeau]

Right on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The_Dark]

They are going to have a hard fight against ID. As it does not name a specific God as the I behind the D, it Constitutionally sound. We, the USA, do not have Seperation of Church and State. Thats a myth. Our government is just not allowed to make a law that favors or disfavors any religion over others.

[Paper Hearts]

They are going to have a hard fight against ID. As it does not name a specific God as the I behind the D, it Constitutionally sound. We, the USA, do not have Seperation of Church and State. Thats a myth. Our government is just not allowed to make a law that favors or disfavors any religion over others.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Doesn't using a phrase like "In God we trust" suggest that there is a god, thereby advocating the idea of religion over atheism or other religions like Buddhism, that do not necessarily believe in the existence of a "god"?

Also, if the phrase "In God we trust" doesn't refer to a specific deity, then isn't it a hollow, meaningless statement and therefore a waste of ink? Wouldn't such a statement even provoke the anger of certain self-proclaimed "jealous" type gods?

Separation of church and state is one of the ideas behind the 1st amendment, for the purpose of insuring "religious freedom". In other words, this of course means that we were founded on the belief that the minute that the state begins to be influenced by the church, that is the minute that your freedom of religion ends. If there has been a breach of that, from the beginning, isn't it all the more imperative that we now correct such an obvious infringement on the civil rights of so many of our citizens? Or is it more important that we have such capricious and insincere declarations emblazoned on our currency (and what level of blasphemy is represented by including the word "God" on something reported to be the 'root of all evil'?)?

I for one would rather live in a land where I know that all of my fellow citizens are free.

Another point:

Why is the word 'god' capitalized on currency if it does not refer to the 'proper' name of a specific god? If it does not, shouldn't the letter gee appear in lower case?

I love America, where our money asserts that we trust in one god who's name is God, but not meaning any particular one, specifically, naturally ( so never mind you dangerous, second class, though we are not judging you because that is a sin, religion-less animals). I love freedom.

[The_Dark]

It's a complicated issue.. and thats a major understatement. I, for one, do not equate Freedom from Religion to Freedom of Religion. They are not the same thing in my eyes. I don't think not beleiving in anything is a religion either.

[Paper Hearts]

*Oh, and what about religions that believe in several gods, like Hinduism? our bills should read: "In god(s) we trust, oh but not some of us" or, more reasonably, our bills should not make any mention of belief, it's not necessary.

It is very obvious that pronouncements like "In God we trust" or "One nation under God" are lies. Lies are a sin if you are a Christian.

Furthermore, if one truly believes in an all-knowing, all-seeing god, where does this insecurity come from that motivates people to make such statements? If something is omnipotent, then you don't have to do or say shit, because they already know...

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

I would just like to interject that when the constitution was written.... there were only a few religions as far as the framers were concerned: Catholic, Protestant (only a few versions compared to the Bazillion we have now... on every street corner), Judahism, and finally Eastern Orthodox... which didnt count because there wernt any in the US.

All other religions were seen as silly and since none of those people were going to be coming to the US anyway, there was no reason to even think about them.

the "Seperation" was as The_Dark said, but I would limit it to: The US gov could not force a religion upon someone or establish a nationally recognized religion.

The nation was intended by the founders to be christian... but it was not intended that everyone be forced by the governnment to be christian (local communities were probably going to do that anyway except in the case of the Jews who would be left mostly alone as long as they did not "get too rich" or "piss anyone off".

that being said I dont agree with any of the modern christian "ethical" impositions unto our society by a bunch of people who think they know whats best for everyone just because they are listening to someone who supposedly hears voices....

[Paper Hearts]

Oh, I realize it, and I'm saying that it only makes it all the more important that we correct it immediatly.

Look, every piece of money that I have in my pocket now, is American currency. I am also an American. I am also an agnostic. None the less, each and everyone of those bills proclaims that I "trust in God".

That is insulting. I don't trust in any gods and certainly not the Christian "God".

It misrepresents me. Do you like to be misrepresented? This statement on my bills, (all of which I have earned) also infers that trusting in a god is something good, something special, just by it's existence on the bill. This statement also embarrasses me because every time I have to pass one, the person I have to give my money to is liable to believe in reading, that what the bill says about me is true.

Why would the government force this kind of thing on me?

[phee]

Good werk

[The_Dark]

Just a question...

Does it really hurt you in anyway? and would you have even thought about it if someone else had not thrown a fit?

[Paper Hearts]

It's not because you posted it Dark.

If I say "no, it doesn't hurt me", will you agree to start a petition to have the statement "In God we trust" changed to "We are all atheists"?

Yes, it hurts me, if it didn't I wouldn't be so passionate about it.

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

im done on this thread....

it looks to be a HUGE CONTROVERSY

i could not resist the

HUGE PENIS reference

[Fierce Critter]

Does it hurt me/us/etc?

Yes. When it is used to force certain beliefs on people, or to make other beliefs null and void.

Of utmost importance to me in this country/gov't/whathaveyou, is freedom & liberty. When a president is known to have taken the following stance (snipped from this website:)

...George W. Bush, governor of Texas and 2000 GOP presidential frontrunner, was asked by ABC News about Barr's concerns on Wicca in the military as well as the posting of the Ten Commandments in public buildings.

Bush said that he did not believe "witchcraft is a religion," and he hoped "the military would rethink this decision." Bush was then asked whether he agreed with the recent U.S. House of Representatives' vote that said states have the constitutional power to place the Ten Commandments in public buildings, including public schools. He said that he had no problem with the religious codes being placed in every public building.

I can't help but fear my freedoms under such a man.

The more the blend of religion and gov't is pushed, the more threatened I feel.

People have spoken out against the blandness society would become under Political Correctness as a guideline. But wouldn't society be just as bland all under the same religious umbrella?

[phee]

Unfortunatly... I must say again... The seperation of religion and and government is a relativly new concept, and is just that. There really has never been a seperation of this kind that has been implimented in any real way.

If a person in power has religious beliefs, or has been funded by people who have said religious beliefs, then there is no seperation.

[Homicidalheathen]

This is true. I saw a special that proved different lifestyles evolve as a result of a societies needs......religeon....government....ect....

I am just glad I dont have to cover my face to go outside as a woman to be honest.

That I still have a clitoris......that sort of thing, could be worse ya know.

Unfortunatly... I must say again... The seperation of religion and and government is a relativly new concept, and is just that. There really has never been a seperation of this kind that has been implimented in any real way.

If a person in power has religious beliefs, or has been funded by people who have said religious beliefs, then there is no seperation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Steven]

my my my good people, what exactly is it that you fear will happen to you all from the neo nazi relgeious right?

do you actually FEAR that your children will be persecuted or hopelessly damaged if they confronted with a possibility of Judeo Christian ideal in a singular God?

do you actually FEAR that the God Squad will be coming into your homes in the middle of the night to throw you all into secular humanistic concentration camps?

do you really lose sleepp over the whole "religeous" agenda overtaking your nation, your workplace, your cubicle, your airwaves, your TV's, your cable, your MTV, your cornflakes???

this thing to me, is rather ridiculous.

once upon a time, the social makeup of this country was of the Judeo Christian flavor on the whole - as a majority. Sad but true.

Today, it no longer is.

Just because George W and his cronies have a God Based agenda and because our currency has GOD in it does not mean you will all be cast back into the dark ages of the inquisitions, forever to have your personal ideals and identities swallowed up in the void. In reality - every year popular culture takes us farther and farther away from embracing anything even remotely Judeo Christian - look around people - you've allready won the war and time is on your side.

As for the ACLU - I'm not a big fan. They have a tendency to oppress those who do not likewise embrace their agendas as well. Incidently - the ACLU has also gone as far as representing public school districts who have forced students in AMerica to take off their crucifixes and to not wear particular "religeous" flavored garb in said protection of seperation of church and state. They've lost many of those particular lawsuits - but you dont hear about those types of fights on the media, because hey - its just not popular.

Steven

[Fierce Critter]

do you actually FEAR that your children will be persecuted or hopelessly damaged if they confronted with a possibility of Judeo Christian ideal in a singular God? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope. But I worry that that's just one, tiny little inroad to eventually lead towards FORCING the BELIEF of strictly the Judeo Christian Singular God.

do you actually FEAR that the God Squad will be coming into your homes in the middle of the night to throw you all into secular humanistic concentration camps?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do believe history has shown what befalls those who don't believe or believe differently when Christians have absolute power (burning times anyone?).

do you really lose sleepp over the whole "religeous" agenda overtaking your nation, your workplace, your cubicle, your airwaves, your TV's, your cable, your MTV, your cornflakes???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have other things to lose sleep about. But yes, I am concerned. History and the statements of those in power give me very, very good and real reason to be so.

[Steven]

Nope. But I worry that that's just one, tiny little inroad to eventually lead towards FORCING the BELIEF of strictly the Judeo Christian Singular God.

I do believe history has shown what befalls those who don't believe or believe differently when Christians have absolute power (burning times anyone?).

I have other things to lose sleep about. But yes, I am concerned. History and the statements of those in power give me very, very good and real reason to be so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is hard for me to see as a reality, this insinuated forcing of Judeo Christianity.

In the modern era - we have entire countries where the practice of Xtianity is outlawed and punished via imprisonment. You and I have some of their manufactured products in our homes.

We have other countries and regions where Christians are killed in the streets - and various factions of the Muslim faith(s) are being instilled as part of ethnic/spiritual cleansing and re-assignment.

The last example that I can think of for a world wide oppressor would have been the Nazi regime - and even in that case - I cannot find the instillment and enforecement of Judeo Christianity.

And again I cite the culture/mindset of the present age..... regardelss of Mr. Bush and his administration - the American People by and large - Joe Quarterback and Susie Homemaker - are NOT fighting a Pro-Christian war, but in reality - are growing in numbers as a form of opposition to it. Turn on a radio, open up a magazine or newspaper. Look at our music, advertising, and pop culture in general - these are the things that readily communicate the value systems of the up and coming generations, the future of US as a whole. Pop Culture these days is a mixture of Secular Humanism and an embracing of Paganism and a unitarian approach to spirituality. Pop Culture loudly rejects the tenants of Xtianity.

Nobody is going to hunt your children for being Non-Christians Critter.

But one day - they very well may hunt mine.......

Steven

[The_Dark]

(burning times anyone?).

When exactly was that? I ask because as much as Wiccan's talk about it... there is no record of it in any culture.

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

I find it interesting that lots of people were afraid of loosing freedoms under the clinton administration as well (though they were different freedoms). Back then, the left was like "you dont need those freedoms" and everything was ok.... now that the right is in charge and the left might loose some freedoms the right is saying "you dont need those freedoms"

oh the Irony...

[the eternal]

Zhukov,

This is the first Ive heard of lost freedoms under Clinton.

Please elaborate.

BTW, I started a little ID thread awhile back because of my fear that our children will be taught, as in that PA school district, a theory that is given equal time and weight in science classes that

A is not scientifically sound in any way shape or form

B is not even formed enough to be considered a theory by scientific standards

Freedoms aside, what I find chilling about the Bush admin is that facts seem to take a back seat to ideology.

Inherit the wind is over 50 years old and NOW we're having this debate again???

"I know what I know" seems to take precedence over "here are the facts after conclusive research."

This is the case for funding for family planning, the morning after pill, social services funding, and on and on.

The justification for decisions should not be based on the idle opinions of one man.

[the eternal]

If Intelligent Design passes, I want Holocaust Denial to be taught in EVERY classroom across the country.

I'm SERIOUS.

Oh sure, there is documentation and pictures and first hand accounts, but things can be doctored you know???

And there is a strong minority, comprised of JUST AS MANY phds as in Intelligent Design that say the holocaust never happened.

Were you there?? I didnt think so.

So, I think when we teach WWII, we need to say that, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, facts and research and document after document pointing TO its existence,

the holocaust MAY not have happened AT ALL,

and as in PA,

give a reference to scholarly work refuting its occurence.

[Msterbeau]

my my my good people, what exactly is it that you fear will happen to you all from the neo nazi relgeious right?

do you actually FEAR that your children will be persecuted or hopelessly damaged if they confronted with a possibility of Judeo Christian ideal in a singular God? 

do you actually FEAR that the God Squad will be coming into your homes in the middle of the night to throw you all into secular humanistic concentration camps?

As a matter of fact. This is exactly what I fear.

Why can't it say "In gold we trust"? Because, really that's what backs up the money , right? (Yeah...I know... It doesn't really anymore, but it did orginally)

[phee]

As a matter of fact.  This is exactly what I fear.   

Why can't it say "In gold we trust"?  Because, really that's what backs up the money , right?  (Yeah...I know...  It doesn't really anymore, but it did orginally)

Yeah that is kinda what I fear as well.... Some of the largest "mistakes" in History have been made because people have had the "But this couldn't happen in this day and age" mentallity, and then it just keeps on happening again and again.

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

Im not saying there were as many rights or which ones etc... im just saying that the fear was there.... or there wouldnt have been an oklahoma bombing... that was not done to sell a biography or get a TV movie deal. It was done out of fear.

every side who is not in power fears (to some extent rightfully so) that the side in power is going to take away their freeoms/rights.