Politics

[Homicidalheathen]

Clinton was hard on us pot smokers.

Zhukov,

This is the first Ive heard of lost freedoms under Clinton. 

Please elaborate. 

BTW, I started a little ID thread awhile back because of my fear that our children will  be taught, as in that PA school district, a theory that is given equal time and weight  in science classes that

A is not scientifically sound in any way shape or form

B is not even formed enough to be considered a theory by scientific standards

Freedoms aside, what I find chilling about the Bush admin is that facts seem to take a back seat to ideology. 

Inherit the wind is over 50 years old and NOW we're having this debate again???

"I know what I know" seems to take precedence over "here are the facts after conclusive research."

This is the case for funding for family planning, the morning after pill, social services funding, and on and on.

The justification for decisions should not be based on the idle opinions of one man.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Paper Hearts]

I watched this made for Australian television mini-series entitled John Safran vs. God that I thought was interesting. Safran is a two time AFI awards winning comedian and documentary film maker who uses religion as his theme. In John Safran vs. God, he travels the globe, exploring many of the world's faiths from the inside, by joining and participating in their ceremonies and rituals, in a sort of spiritual journey, attempting to find the best conviction for himself to follow.

What I found fascinating about his trek was how many times he found himself in the United States, to try this belief or that. -Probably between a third to half of the episodes were filmed in the United States. From Southern faith healers to peyote tribes and everything in between, we really have such a diverse population here.

However, even with such a variety, the United States lags far behind other "developed" countries, for willingness to recognize the full span of it's citizenry. In fact, with being first in multiplicity we are somehow last among "first-world" countries for respect of that.

It reminds me of a quote by Gandhi~

When asked what he thought of western civilization his response was

"I think it would be a good idea."

http://www6.sbs.com.au/johnsafranvsgod/

[Fierce Critter]

The term "burning times" is often used to encompass different historical periods of mass witchunting. Perhaps it is too broad a term to be used authoritatively. So, instead, let me present The Malleus Maleficarum. If ever there was a "burning time", it was exacerbated, if not caused by, this book.

Granted, the book has a shady history as far as who ordered it, who approved it, who in various positions of religious (read: Christian) power might have condemned it. But it WAS accepted AND used by Christians as a "guidebook" for witchhunts from the fifteenth to seventeenth centuries.

But my point ranges beyond RELIGIOUS freedoms that I fear are in danger in a society declared strictly Christian. So long as Bible-guided Christian rule is in effect, things other religions/spiritualities consider harmless will be feared, shunned, and outlawed.

I'm not Wiccan. Far from it. I find it as dogmatic as Christianity. But here's a big difference I see between the two beliefs: Christianity - Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. However, if you don't believe what I believe, you are a sinner, and I will do everything in my power to show you the error of your ways so that you might be saved - and so that you'll stop doing things that bother me, even if they're harmless; Wicca - Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. PERIOD.

Steven: look at our music, advertising, and pop culture in general - these are the things that readily communicate the value systems of the up and coming generations, the future of US as a whole. Pop Culture these days is a mixture of Secular Humanism and an embracing of Paganism and a unitarian approach to spirituality. Pop Culture loudly rejects the tenants of Xtianity.[/unquote]

And who is creating this pop culture? How many of those who are doing so get on awards shows and the first person they thank is "God" or "Jesus"?

You're basically saying that the crap spewed by actors & musicians today is reflective of "corrupt" pagan values, as opposed to wholesome tenets of Christianity. Well, that's ludicrous and about as misguided (to put it mildly) as the beliefs that guided those who waved the malleus maleficarum around as an excuse to hang people centuries ago. It also reflects an ignorance of pagan values that's almost insulting in its application.

Sorry, but 50Cent (Christian), Snoop Dogg (Christian), Marilyn Manson (Athiest), Godsmack (Pagan), Britney Spears (dabbling for the moment in Kabballah) and Adam Sandler (Jewish) don't guide my actions any more than they guide yours - and they never will.

As for these "growing numbers of evil/godless pagans" on our football teams and cooking dad's scrambled eggs, these numbers hardly support your assertion that some kind of grand takeover by non-christians is imminent.

Your fear is that other groups are going to eliminate Christianity. My fear is that Christians are going to eliminate everything but. You have pop culture to back up your assertions. I have people who have lost their jobs, children & safety to speak their beliefs to back up mine. Don't believe me? Take off your crucifix & wear a pentagram to work one week and see how you're treated.

Wouldn't this nation be a much less fearful and fair place if everybody was, by law, permitted their beliefs?

[The_Dark]

The laws currently allow you to beleive anything you want. They also allow me to beleive anythign I want. if I choose to beleive your going to go to hell... well.. deal with it. Those are my beleifs. If I choose to tell you that your going to go to hell.. well, thats my freedom of speech. You don't have to listen. Sue me, but your going to have to prove that what I am saying is causing harm to win.. and if you don't beleive in hell... how is my telling you that your going to go to a non-existant place hurting you?

[phee]

The laws currently allow you to beleive anything you want. They also allow me to beleive anythign I want. if I choose to beleive your going to go to hell... well.. deal with it. Those are my beleifs. If I choose to tell you that your going to go to hell.. well, thats my freedom of speech. You don't have to listen. Sue me, but your going to have to prove that what I am saying is causing harm to win.. and if you don't beleive in hell... how is my telling you that your going to go to a non-existant place hurting you?

If a Teacher told one of your children that they were going to Hell... would that teacher be simply excersizing thier freedom of speech, or doing harm?

[Fierce Critter]

Hmmm... I don't see where a discussion of who and who isn't going to hell came into this. Actually, it didn't.

I believe we were discussing how we think a society based on strictly Christian tenets/rules/etc. or one that allows for other beliefs will affect us.

But in relation to your post, your telling anyone they're going to hell doesn't affect anyone if they have a mind of their own. But laws based on the Christian belief that certain acts are sinful do and would affect people.

[The_Dark]

Both. I would ask them to refrain from doing that. If they continued, then I would take legal recourse tomake them stop.

[The_Dark]

and jsut so you know.. I tell my children that sinning causes a person to go to hell.

[phee]

Both. I would ask them to refrain from doing that. If they continued, then I would take legal recourse tomake them stop.

I agree

[Paper Hearts]

It hurts people's presumed integrity and reputation, therefore causing them a social disadvantage that effects many aspects of their lives, including education and personal economy. By our government suggesting the idea of faith is something good, it also implies that to be without it is bad. It demonstrates to people, by such policies, that it is acceptable to be intolerant and further, displays that anyone can get away with blatant oppression of anything non-Christian, and 'that' is also threatening.

Christ on the other hand was more about patience with others.

[The_Dark]

FC: I used "going to hell" as an example of one of those core Christian beleifs that we were talking about. Sin and Hell kinda go hand in hand in christian belief.

[Paper Hearts]

That's fine Dark, you're entitled to your beliefs just like we all should be. But as a Christian one is supposed to believe that God is all-powerfull. -Therefore, he wouldn't need anyone's help to convert or condemn people. Besides, Judging people is a reported sin.

What seperates a free country from a opressed country is the level at which the minorty's civil rights are respected. Obviously, belief is something personal, and it should be kept that way when outside the home or place of worship. It needs to be to achieve true freedom and a level playing field for all. -If all cannot be acknowledged as equal than no mention of belief should be made at all, in other words.

[Paper Hearts]

Your telling someone they are "going to hell" isn't a breach of that, but the state, on the other hand, hinting that those without religion are lesser, deffinately is.

[Steven]

[

No No No Critter..... you r putting words in my mouth.

I said NOTHING about corrupt pagan values spewed by actors and musicians. I never said corrupt - when you do that you paint me as a Pagan ahter and I'm not.

What I said - was that Pop Culture - and that includes trends - by and large that effect the kids on a whole - does not encourage or embrace Judeo Christian Pinciples, and that Pop Culture is a very good way to judge upcoming societal trends based on the VALUE SYSTEMS of the youth. Dont try to make me a Pagan basher. Its not the truth and it does not apply here.

And again - when did I say EVIL GODLESS PAGANS?

Not cool Critter - lets not twist my words to create a new angst filled topical discussion. Look Dude - what your missing is the undercurrent of my statements. I grew up in the late 60's and early 70's. Young people had different concerns and foundational identites back then - and the questioning of Christian principles in favor of a wider spiritual view was jsut starting to take form on a grand scale. What I mean by grand scale is that you saw it in music, literature, and heard about it in every day conversations on the street.

Nowadays - its grown stronger - this seperation from tradition.

You can quote me studies all day.

And what I'll always go back to is everyday life and everyday people. What they are talking about, what they want, what they dont want. This is not a stretch. Things have changed since my growing up days - and they shall continue to change. God, and the importance of God - matters much much less than it used to matter. In 39 years on this planet - I've only seen a decrease - I've yet to see a true "revival" that my Xtian Bretheren are so qucik to claim. Beleive me, it does not exist.

In addition - I DO beleive what your saying about people who have lost their jobs, and have been harrassed, etc. And you'll find this sort of thing much more in teh Mid West. I'm from LA - I've spent many years in the Hollywood scene - wearing a pentagram would get you far less attention than it would out here.

But as for harrassment - let me simply add - that there are equal and growing numbers of said harrassment on my side, verifyable numbers, insinuating a verifyable trend of bitterness and resentment against an old system of beleif (Xtianity).

Oh, and Im not trying to eliminate the Pagans Critter.

I have no fear of an opposing point of view. And everyone by law - SHOULD be permitted their beleifs. For example - I would never vote to outlaw Satanism. I dont agree with it - but I'm a Vet who pledged to defend the freedom to embrace it.

As fro my own "fear"....I just dont beleive the growing hype about what "The Christians" will do to America. As the hype grows, the fear grows, in the end a man like me might be hated by all.

and for future - I've been cool to you Critter - dont try to ugly-fy me by paraphrasing and adding to what you think I'm saying. I speak english - let me talk for me - and I'll let you talk for you. Fair enough??

Steven

[Fierce Critter]

You get me wrong. I find you a very eloquent person, and wouldn't dare to try to put words in your mouth.

Your paragraph:

Steven: look at our music, advertising, and pop culture in general - these are the things that readily communicate the value systems of the up and coming generations, the future of US as a whole. Pop Culture these days is a mixture of Secular Humanism and an embracing of Paganism and a unitarian approach to spirituality. Pop Culture loudly rejects the tenants of Xtianity.[/unquote]

Said both that that today's pop culture is bad, and pop culture embraces secular humanism, paganism and unitarianism. Further, that this "bad pop culture" rejects Christian values. Thus, Christian = good values, paganism & unitarianism = bad values.

That's how I read it - quite literally. If that's not what you meant, well, sorry I read you that way. But if you re-read that paragraph, I don't know how I could NOT have gotten that gist.

[Steven]

You get me wrong. I find you a very eloquent person, and wouldn't dare to try to put words in your mouth.

Your paragraph:

I suppose I have a tendency to expect people to take me at my word.

Although you feel that I'm rather eloquent (a "thank you" applies here) I'm also very direct and blunt. In other words - I only say what I feel, I dont ever intentionally hint or insinuate another underlying beleif system.

If I thought something was "Bad" - I would have quite simply said, that this is bad.

But I did not. Because that's not the way I feel.

I've said before that I beleive in absolutes.

And I've in the past, called certain lifestyle or behavours into question that I beleived eventually led to a dead end. This is true. Perhaps this is where I've unknowingly put across a "Bad" vs "Good" message - althjough that was never what I wanted.

I've also said (in other posts) - that organized Christianity in and of itself is a failing social system, and that I appreciate others points of views because it helps me to re-consider my own and allows me a chance to grow by listening to the values of others. So.... I do think that that's a pretty fair system.

I'm not arguing the "worth" or intrinsic value of yoru beleif system versus my own Critter. Honestly.

I'm simply stating - that it seems to me that the broader social mindset of the times does not embrace my Christian ideals.

Fair Enough?

Steven

[Fierce Critter]

Works for me. =)