Is it time for EBM to leave the nest?

[Hermine]

I don't think there's anything wrong with people listening to EBM. I think it's great that the new generation has something they enjoy and that there's a broader range of dark music available. I like a bit of variety.

But there isn't any anymore.

Most "goth" clubs are more interested in packing dance floors with bouncing kids than preserving actual (as in the specific genre, not a judgment but a category) goth music, Music that is not necessarily about packing the dance floor. After all, goth didn't used to be about that. I'm not saying EBM should be stamped out, but that a space needs to be set aside for goth too.

I think that EBM is big enough to be its own subculture and it needs to be before it suffocates the original goth one. Sure, there will be cross-pollination and that's a good thing but there need to be places for the slow music.

Now, as for the commercial issue. EBM is much more lucrative vis a vis door. However, you get a lot fewer people who are old enough to drink (I don't anyway, but you can still turn a profit on me if you stock nonalcoholic beer, especially Buckler). For example, Midnight DC plays a better mix than most and their venue is happy. People who are older come, there are enough of them, the floor is always packed when the oldschool stuff is played (some nights, it's the EBM that clears the floor there), and even when non-dancing oriented songs are played, folks who aren't on the floor are more likely to be at the bar.

I know it can't fill the big clubs, but I'd rather be in a small intimate space than a warehouse anyway. Doesn't even have to be a bar as far as I'm concerned. Afternoon tea, chess, and ambient would be cool. And you're just not as likely to have to worry about a lot of E or speed being brought into the venue either. In my area at least, most of the oldschoolers have given up even pot by now.

I really think there should be a word to distinguishe EBM fans. Not a disparaging "neo-goth" type thing, but something nice, "cybernaut" or some such. I don't think they're bad or "fake" but I do think they're doing something different. Something that is cool if you're into it but it has virtually nothing whatsoever in common with the original goth thing.

[phee]

I always heard EBM fans called "Gravers"

As far as the business end, well... EBM fans drink more, spend more, and the more they dance, the more they drink and spend. I remember when a club called Ascension UK was opened a few blocks away from CC, they had industrial/goth/ambient/dreampop the whole spectrum of the subculture, there were boardgames, coffee and tea, and a lot of other non-danceclub activities... it was really cool but it didn't last because it couldn't sustain the income without the "dance club" feel and "gravers" poaring there paychecks into the bar.... sad but a club will not stay opened if it cannot get enough people/money to sustain it.

[Brenda Starrr]

Are you sure you don't mean "ravers", Phee?

[Black Sunday]

oh no...not another one of these threads.

if EBM is Apoptygma Bezerk and VNVNation then no it isn't time to leave the nest.

[Brenda Starrr]

if EBM is Apoptygma Bezerk and VNVNation then no it isn't time to leave the nest.

For once, I agree.

[phee]

Are you sure you don't mean "ravers", Phee?

No I mean "Gravers"

As in Grave and Raver

or Gothic Raver

[Brenda Starrr]

See? I learn something new from you every day. I've never heard that term used here in B-more.

[The_Dark]

I am all for stuffing most ravers and gravers in an oven for a few hours. I'll stick with the original EBM, Front 242, the rest can just go. OK, VNV Nation has a few tracks I like.

[Shade Everdark]

As a fairly recent inductee to the 'official' scene, I don't really feel qualified to say much. I will say that I have a great appreciation for both genres, that I'm not really difficult to please in music.

However, money talks, as the saying goes, and if EBM is what will bring most of the black-clad patrons, then that is the majority of what will be played. Perhaps we should start a coalition and set up a club that caters to the 'roots'.

[Nerdcore]

what does wolfsheim fall under

ive alwaysed wondered

????

anyone?

[phee]

I always thought of "Wolfsheim" as synthpop ala "Erasure" or the band "Electronic"

[Jarodaka]

I don't care what is played as long as it is good. A club night with a constant, thumping EBM-a-thon is just as sleep-inducing and irritating as a prolonged, clear-the-cobwebs dark ambient set.

That said, I think Luna's Oontz has it about right for those tilting towards the EBM side of things. Interesting that for the Detroit crowd, Oontz is an occasional thing and not the regular sort of club night Hermine has to deal with.

[Black Sunday]

ver 1.5

[Hermine]

No, oldschool goth can't fill a warehouse. No, oldschool goth can't fill the big clubs.

That's fine with me.

I would rather go to a small, intimate venue than a warehouse space. I don't like warehouse parties because I am a goth, not a raver. I would rather be at something elegant, sensual, and interesting than a sweaty tweak-athon.

And where I am, most of the ravers /"gravers" are too young to drink, so it goes well at the door but very badly at the bar.

In fact, a couple of oldschool/ambient nights where I am have started to do quite well lately. The biggest club in the area is all techno, (and even has a room for techno that doesn't try to pretend to be goth), but you have to cater to mainstream pop culture to fill a big club. That's one of the many reasons I don't like big clubs.

And I hate to be pissy but I am really quite tired of being told that real goths are obsolete and should just curl up and die quietly.

BTW, I've heard the graver term in Baltimore, lo these many years ago, but only from one person. Guy that used to promote the depot used "grave" and "gothnic" long before I heard them anywhere else.

[Black Sunday]

I am goth

I am really quite tired of being told that real goths are obsolete and should just curl up and die quietly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought real goths like the thought of curling up and dying quietly. :unhappy:

[Head Wreck]

again, what is goth?

[phee]

Well asked HW!

[Hermine]

Goth is a genre of music and a style of clothing. Both of which really grew out of the punk movement in the early 80's. Neither of which have anything to do with techno, raver pants, or glowsticks. You don't have to be an 80s veteran to be goth but you do have to be doing something that has something to do with the original goth movement.

Goth is something dark, creative, and different. It's not "well, I wear black, but my music and dress are otherwise just like every other damned raver" It's not head to toe hot topic. Popular doesn't mean better and it damnwell doesn't mean goth. Goth music is often very guitar-driven, slow, brooding, and heavy on the distortion. It is something that can be danced to without being under the influence of amphetamines.

Now, as for whether the original goth subculture should be stamped out, which is really what the EBM fans here are advocating. The survival of goth was the actual topic of the post:

Look, there are still people who listen to oldschool goth. Not as many as listen to EBM, but that's because EBM is really just black-packaged pop music.

Goth doesn't have to disappear just because it doesn't draw warehouse sized crowds. It never has. Goth is a subculture; it's counterculture; it's not the mainstream. EBM is.

What's really happened is that a pop genre has come up that calls itself goth. Goth was never so huge as that and it shouldn't disappear because it still isn't. It should be allowed to continue to exist in its original format, which is nice small clubs, not warehouses.

I don't think goth clubs should turn into mainstream clubs just because it will sell more tickets. I think that promotors who want to do a goth night should schedule it for a space that can be filled by a goth night. There's absolutely nothing wrong with small, interesting spaces. Promotors who want to have a warehouse party should advertise it for what it is, and not pretend it's a goth night.

Goth isn't for warehouses. It never was. It used to be about interesting events in small, cozy venues. I'm not saying warehouse clubs should lose money by hosting a small countercultural night, I'm saying that there should be real goth nights in suitable venues.

This is starting to happen where I am and, you know what? It works. The nights succeed. The promotors do well. So we actual goths don't have to just disappear so a bunch of ravers can pretend they're something they're not.

[Shade Everdark]

Popular doesn't mean better and it damnwell doesn't mean goth.

No, but it means better sales, and when you boil it down, MOST club owners (note I say most) care more about profits than about the culture they are hosting.

Now, as for whether the original goth subculture should be stamped out, which is really what the EBM fans here are advocating.

I really don't think anyone here advocates stamping out the "original goth subculture," I think it's more about adapting to the way things are, and dealing with what we have. As a fairly recent inductee into any kind of formalized gothic setting, whether you choose to call it that or no (I choose not to get into the 'I've been a goth for so long' games), I honestly can't see how this will be stopped, not in American society. Subcultures, sociologically speaking, are best gotten rid of by coopting them, and making them if not mainstream, then at least not quite so far out on the fringes. That's what's happened/is happening with goth. It's reflected in the clubs. Is it regrettable? Perhaps. Inevitable? Better believe it.

Goth is a genre of music and a style of clothing.

Maybe I'm being pretentious here, but I always thought it was more a state of mind. It was the idea that people didn't feel comfortable in society at large, so they created their own little society where they did feel comfortable. Certainly music and clothing were part and parcel of the society, where people were encouraged to explore that which mainstream society preferred to sweep under the rug or ignore entirely, but it would seem a bit misleading to attribute everything about goth to clothing or music. I don't know. Perhaps, in my newness, I misinterpret.

[phee]

You know Shade,

I think you responded to about everything that I would have responded to the way that I would have, especially when it comes to club owners. They are running a "business" to make money... pure and simple

I don't think goth clubs should turn into mainstream clubs just because it will sell more tickets. I think that promotors who want to do a goth night should schedule it for a space that can be filled by a goth night. There's absolutely nothing wrong with small, interesting spaces.

This is more what people have goth parties for, and is not very good for a "business." So in other words, maybe Goth has "matured" out of clubs, and goths that miss this type of environment should have more parties for those that would enjoy that environment as well, or rent venues for such a purpose.

As far as the semantics of what EBM actually is, that is sort of splitting hairs, people enjoy it gothy popmusic like or not, so they like to go to clubs and dance... it is that simple. Who cares weather it is "real" or not.

[Black Sunday]

ver 1.5

[phee]

I like city club, I like the music and I like the people. That's all that really matters to me.

What more needs to be said... that about sums it up.

[JaneDead]

Goth is a genre of music and a style of clothing. Both of which really grew out of the punk movement in the early 80's. Neither of which have anything to do with techno, raver pants, or glowsticks. You don't have to be an 80s veteran to be goth but you do have to be doing something that has something to do with the original goth movement.

what what what what? how come no one commented on this?

[Brenda Starrr]

Where ARE these places???? I want to get out!

[Shade Everdark]

what what what what? how come no one commented on this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought I had.