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Saddam Hussein Trial

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Blackmail Newbie

Blackmail

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Well it started today and he plead not guilty, even refusing to acknowlege the court as he believes he is still the President of Iraq.

Not guilty huh? I have a Kurdish friend who lost almost all of his family to Saddam, I think he begs to differ with the deposed leader.

He will probably be found guilty and hanged, which I find to be quite archaic. The next court date isn't until November.

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phee Enthusiast

phee

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Well it started today and he plead not guilty, even refusing to acknowlege the court as he believes he is still the President of Iraq. 

Not guilty huh?  I have a Kurdish friend who lost almost all of his family to Saddam, I think he begs to differ with the deposed leader. 

He will probably be found guilty and hanged, which I find to be quite archaic.  The next court date isn't until November.

I heard that he had a fight with the guards as well

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Blackmail Newbie

Blackmail

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There are no exact numbers on how many people Saddam ordered to be killed but human rights experts say it is between 5,000 and 100,000, most likely the latter being closer to accurate. I'm glad the UN finally stepped in and did something about it.....er, well, you know what I mean.

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ZhukovCodeslinger Newbie

ZhukovCodeslinger

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The main problems with this is the same ones from the Nuremburg trials.

1. Was what he did (things he orderd done) illegal when he did them?

2. Does the new government (or US) have the right to try him for those things?

Notice how our Supreme Court was not involved in the Nuremburg trials? ever wonder why? It was because they said outright that the trials were ILLEGAL under our own laws...

THe laws that we applied to them were written after the fact by foreign nations. There were no grandfather clauses applied, and there were huge Jurisdicitonal issues.

That being said, I would have been happy if they would have just shot all the high ranking Nazi Party members all SS officers, and selectively shot high ranking german army, navy and airforce officers.

The way saddam is being put on trial may seem like a good thing because he was/is very horrible, but it also opens the idea for those same concepts to be applied to everyone else (retroactive laws imposed outside of national soverignty)

Just a little comment...

From a legal standpoint, these types of trials and the creation and application of laws/penalties are not much differnt in nature from those issued by the Ayyatolah, Bin Ladin, or Quaddafi (the ones we have been involved in just happen to have more moral capital... as far as we are concerned of course)

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Shade Everdark Newbie

Shade Everdark

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That is an interesting, if discouraging, point you make.

What do you would be the more prudent thing to do? Shoot him in his jail cell? Simply give him over to public execution? I mean, I can't argue with anything you've said, but trying someone in a court of law is as much a show to say, look, we are at least giving him a chance to defend himself and speak in his defense. Even if what he did was not, strictly speaking, illegal, I think most of us would agree that is morally "illegal" and that we're trying him on more moral grounds, than legal ones. Of course, as you say, that raises problems of its own.

Not mention the show trials that Hitler had, for his political opponents...

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ZhukovCodeslinger Newbie

ZhukovCodeslinger

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That is an interesting, if discouraging, point you make.

What do you would be the more prudent thing to do?  Shoot him in his jail cell?  Simply give him over to public execution?  I mean, I can't argue with anything you've said, but trying someone in a court of law is as much a show to say, look, we are at least giving him a chance to defend himself and speak in his defense.  Even if what he did was not, strictly speaking, illegal, I think most of us would agree that is morally "illegal" and that we're trying him on more moral grounds, than legal ones.  Of course, as you say, that raises problems of its own.

Not mention the show trials that Hitler had, for his political opponents...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

most of my degree was discouraging =(

Its really hard to look at these things objectivly because im not sure what the laws of Iraq were under Saddam. Was his word law like Hitlers was? If so, then nothing he did or had done was illegal. Legislation that allowed the final solution makes it "legal" in german territory.... now you have the issue of where did german territory stop? Once they conquered somthing... was it part of germany? The germans sure thought so...

As for show trials, they were legal in germany and in soviet russia (where they were invented)... We have them too... where the outcome of the trial is forgone and the trial happens just to provide a guilty person rather than getting to the truth (this happens a lot at the local level... just look at all the overturned death row cases... If I were in charge, any prosecuter or cop caught knowingly trying to convict someone to keep the public from knowing how incompetent the police or DAs office is, would get the exact sentence they tried to impose on the "defendent" plus 10 years, and complete forfeiture of all property and assests to the defendent (or deceased's family).

back to saddam... I dont think what he did was illegal under Iraqi law (not that there was much law) And i think its bad that we are having a trial.

Remember the Dictator of Romania... they just stood him up against a wall and machinegunned him... problem solved.

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The_Dark Newbie

The_Dark

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One point "We" are no running the trial. The Iraqi people are. "We" are no really involved in the process.

Another point... we have uncovered 300,000+ bodies in just over 200+ mass graves.

And another point... International Law.... Saddam ordered the use of Chemical weapons and ordered the military to target civillians... Both against International law... (and treatys that Saddam signed in the case of the chemical weapons) The International courts are where Saddam should be being tried but it was decided that Saddam would be tried by the people of Iraq because all of his "crimes" took place there.

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ZhukovCodeslinger Newbie

ZhukovCodeslinger

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One point "We" are no running the trial. The Iraqi people are. "We" are no really involved in the process.

Another point... we have uncovered 300,000+ bodies in just over 200+ mass graves.

And another point... International Law.... Saddam ordered the use of Chemical weapons and ordered the military to target civillians... Both against International law... (and treatys that Saddam signed in the case of the chemical weapons) The International courts are where Saddam should be being tried but it was decided that Saddam would be tried by the people of Iraq because all of his "crimes" took place there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you sure saddam signed the chemical weapons ban?

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Blackmail Newbie

Blackmail

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I hate to take Saddams side, and trust me I despise the man, but if I were him I think there were valid reasons (in his eyes) to kill some of those.

He killed Shiites after the shia uprising.

He lead the Al-Anfal gassing of the Kurds after Kurds tried to execute him.

I am not sure his defense for the Dujall murders or the invasion of Kuwait.

I am just saying this is how he sees things. I have a Kurdish friend as well as several Chaldean friends. The funny thing is that Saddam denies the Al-Anfal attacks, I suggest Saddam reads this site:

http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html

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ZhukovCodeslinger Newbie

ZhukovCodeslinger

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Not the international treaty of 1993 or 2002.... but in 1991 he signed one with the UN. You know.. that treaty at the end of the first Gulf War?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I seem to remember that being a Cease Fire agreement.... no treaty since we were never at "War".

http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/iraqlegalbacktext.html

not agreeing to a UN "resolution" does not make you a criminal in my eyes... or we all in the USA are criminals....

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Vater Araignee Newbie

Vater Araignee

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The main problems with this is the same ones from the Nuremburg trials.

1. Was what he did (things he orderd done) illegal when he did them?

2. Does the new government (or US) have the right to try him for those things?

Notice how our Supreme Court was not involved in the Nuremburg trials?  ever wonder why?  It was because they said outright that the trials were ILLEGAL under our own laws...

THe laws that we applied to them were written after the fact by foreign nations.  There were no grandfather clauses applied, and there were huge Jurisdicitonal issues.

That being said, I would have been happy if they would have just shot all the high ranking Nazi Party members all SS officers, and selectively shot high ranking german army, navy and airforce officers.

The way saddam is being put on trial may seem like a good thing because he was/is very horrible, but it also opens the idea for those same concepts to be applied to everyone else (retroactive laws imposed outside of national soverignty)

Just a little comment...

From a legal standpoint, these types of trials and the creation and application of laws/penalties are not much differnt in nature from those issued by the Ayyatolah, Bin Ladin, or Quaddafi (the ones we have been involved in just happen to have more moral capital... as far as we are concerned of course)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He is lucky he get this farce trial.

What should have happened is what happens most of the time when a government is overthrown over there, execution upon capture of all high ranking officials.

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