San Francisco voters approve handgun

[Bpage]

BTW, this is the problem with democracy -- it allows the majority to vote away the rights of the minority.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just like gay marriage

[The_Dark]

Except the fact that the Constitution gives EVERY US citizen the Right to own a gun. What your "city" did was remove one of your rights. It wont stand up in court if anyone ever grows a set and challenges it in a Federal court.

[Blackmail]

Except the fact that the Constitution gives EVERY US citizen the Right to own a gun. What your "city" did was remove one of your rights. It wont stand up in court if anyone ever grows a set and challenges it in a Federal court.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Dark, I respect your opinion on all matters and I think you're obviously one of the most educated people on DGN. However on this issue I disagree with you and here is why:

1. The Constitution was amended to allow gun rights, thus meaning the constitution isn't perfect and is fluent since it allows for changes.

2. The Constitution is outdated on many issues, the gun ownership rule especially.

Example:

Amendment II:

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. "

A well regulated militia is no longer necessary to the security of a free state. Furthermore, most people do not belong to a militia and thus the original reason for the amendment is obsolete. When the amendment was written there was a threat of civil war or Government turning on it's citizens thus a militia by the people was necassary, in 2005 we have no reason to form a citizens army to protect us against the Government.

3. Jarod's point that Gangbangers will still have guns is valid. If guns were banned in the U.S. then yes some criminals will kill people who would otherwise be able to legally protect themselves with guns. That number of people will be minimal though and would be far outweighed by the number of people who would be spared because it would be much harder for criminals to obtain guns.

For example:

American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States. (Centers for Disease Control)

In 2004 there were 11,289 homicides in America by use of gunds. )Centers for Disease control)

Now, have there been 11,289 people who used guns to foil would be criminals? I highly doubt it.

Have any of you ever needed a gun to protect yourself? I havn't. Maybe some of you have, but no one I know (besides my father) has a gun and no one has needed one. I suppose if you lived in Detroit you could make a case for owning a gun but why would you need a gun if you lived in Milford, West Bloomfield, Westland or St. Clair Shores?

4. I've heard the hunting argument. I don't buy it. I am a vegetarian but putting that aside, if you want meat you can go to the store and buy it. Hunters kill animals for recreation and the food is a bonus. No one needs to hunt to live in 2005. I suppose I could be persuaded by some individual stories of people who save money by killing a deer and living off it for months but most hunters I have come across kill for sport.

Even so, why not do what Germany does? Make it so that hunters can obtain guns if they prove it is for hunting?

So in conclusion, I don't like guns and I never will. I see no logical reason to own a gun unless (as mentioned above) you live in a crime ridden area (and a gun ban would lower crime anyway in cities such as Detroit) or you lived in a rural area and were financially challended and hunted your own food.

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

sorry blackmail, but the first 10 ammendments (the bill of rights) are not ammendments per say that allow rights, rather they reaffirm "human rights" that the founding fathers wanted to list on the record.

Wether or not the 2nd ammendment is outdated due to the milita reference is subjective. Having a militia as a last line to secure rights against the state is nothing to scoff at.

and as for numbers of kids being killed by guns as opposed to other countries, the CDC and HCI use figures that include children up to their 21st birthday (long after they can buy their own guns). A sizable number of these "kids" are adults who were involved in crime and either killed eachother, were killed by people defending themselves, or by police. I remember one incident where HCI was trying to claim soldiers aged 18-21 in Iraq as gun violence victims (well duh).

Bringing up Japan is interesting since nobody seems to cry much about the number of Kids there that kill themselves over bad grades by jumping out of windows.

conservative figures for using guns to foil criminals usually run 15-20 times higher than the number killed by guns.

Even so, why not do what Germany does?

do I even need to comment on this one?

Firearms are statistically not all that dangerous even for children. Run the numbers against pool deaths or against drunk drivers.

Its interesting how the inalienable right of firearms ownership is seen to be maluable, where as other things not even remotely related to somthing mentioned in the constitution are seen as "holy" by most people. Im not even going to get into Free speach since most people here have such silly views of what is protected and when and from whom they are protected.

one more thought, how about this, I dont think most people should be allowed to use the internet or have computers unless they proved they needed it for work. Only then should they be allowed to have and use applications deemed necessary for them to do their job and no more... after all, information moving about freely can be just as dangerous as weapons.

sounds silly doesent it? You could apply the same thing to Religion, or even being goth, since so many goth kids kill someone... (well never mind the facts, 'cause now we are trying to make a political point)

[The_Dark]

Zhuk covered most of what I was going to say... I would like to add this though...

Title 10: Section 311 of the United States Code states:

The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

[The_Dark]

I forgot the Michigan Militia laws...

Michigan Compiled Laws 32.509: Organized militia; unorganized militia Section 109 The organized militia of this state collective shall be known as the state military establishment and constitutes the armed forces of this state. The organized militia consists of the army national guard, the air national guard, and the defense force when actually in existance as provided in this act. The unorganized militia consists of all other able-bodied citizens of this state and all other able-bodied citizens of this state who have or shall have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States who shall be age 17 or over and not more than age 60, and shall be subject to state military duty as provided in this act.

[Shade Everdark]

I hate to quote anything from the NRA, but it's really not the guns who kill people. It's the people with the will or the anger to use them. They are only a very easy means to an end.

No, I hold to the idea that it's something about us, about our culture and the way we are raised to behave toward each other, interact with each other, and the way we ought to view ourselves, that causes the problems that come from guns.

That said, I'm still in for a complete overhaul on our gun control laws. I think those need to be rewritten, streamlined, and more effectively enforced. If we're a nation of free persons, you get your freedom, and you pay for the consequences of that freedom.

[The_Dark]

On that note.. the leading cause of death of children 15 and under... BALLS

Not guns.. BALLS. Basket balls, kick balls, baseballs, play balls... get it.. BALLS. Not Guns... So, SF needs to ban BALLS now.

[Shade Everdark]

They can take mine, I don't really need them.

[Blackmail]

sorry blackmail, but the first 10 ammendments (the bill of rights) are not ammendments per say that allow rights, rather they reaffirm "human rights" that the founding fathers wanted to list on the record.

I am not sure what you are saying but the second amendment, as you know, was not included in the first draft of the U.S. constitution.

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_2nd.html

Wether or not the 2nd ammendment is outdated due to the milita reference is subjective.  Having a militia as a last line to secure rights against the state is nothing to scoff at. 

It really isn't subjective. The amendment was written in response to King George, The House of Burgesses, etc. What major threat do we need guns for now? Even if we go by the Dark's definition of Militia, then the Army Reserve and National guard are our current militias, fine - they can have guns. The citizens don't need them.

and as for numbers of kids being killed by guns as opposed to other countries, the CDC and HCI use figures that include children up to their 21st birthday (long after they can buy their own guns).  A sizable number of these "kids" are adults who were involved in crime and either killed eachother, were killed by people defending themselves, or by police.  I remember one incident where HCI was trying to claim soldiers aged 18-21 in Iraq as gun violence victims (well duh).

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:

In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:

373 people in Germany

151 people in Canada

57 people in Australia

19 people in Japan

54 people in England and Wales, and

11,789 people in the United States

(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).

-Data from the Centers For Disease Control

Bringing up Japan is interesting since nobody seems to cry much about the number of Kids there that kill themselves over bad grades by jumping out of windows. 

how is this relevant? Yes, people kill themselves, they'll find a way to do it no matter what. I am talking about homocide, if I throw suicide into the gun statistics of the U.S. then it raises the number of people killed by guns to over 20,000 last year but suicide is irrelevant to a debate about homicide.

conservative figures for using guns to foil criminals usually run 15-20 times higher than the number killed by guns.

Really? Got a source? The only info I could find on this was from the NRA and they didn't cite a source. The NCPA disputes the NRA claims anyway.

do I even need to comment on this one?

Firearms are statistically not all that dangerous even for children.  Run the numbers against pool deaths or against drunk drivers.

what's your point? Yes pools and drunk drivers kill more children than guns. Pools and drunk drivers kill more than cyanide does. Is that an argument in favor of cyanide? Aids doesn't kill alot of people either (statistically) but we are doing a lot to stop aids. Frankly 3,000 kids dying because of guns is 3,000 too many, maybe you think 3,000 dead kids by way of guns is a negligable number but personally I find none of the arguments you posed or anyone else here worth the lives of 3,000 children or 10,000 homicide victims. Yes cars kill people, alcohol kills people, anything can be used to kill people, guns make it far more simple to kill - and the intent behind a vehicle related death is far different than a death by gun in most cases.

anyway:

http://neahin.org/programs/schoolsafety/gu.../statistics.htm

Children and Gun Violence

In a single year, 3,012 children and teens were killed by gunfire in the United States, according to the latest national data released in 2002. That is one child every three hours; eight children every day; and more than 50 children every week. And every year, at least 4 to 5 times as many kids and teens suffer from non-fatal firearm injuries. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)

Its interesting how the inalienable right of firearms ownership is seen to be maluable, where as other things not even remotely related to somthing mentioned in the constitution are seen as "holy" by most people.  Im not even going to get into Free speach since most people here have such silly views of what is protected and when and from whom they are protected.

one more thought, how about this, I dont think most people should be allowed to use the internet or have computers unless they proved they needed it for work.  Only then should they be allowed to have and use applications deemed necessary for them to do their job and no more... after all, information moving about freely can be just as dangerous as weapons.

sounds silly doesent it?  You could apply the same thing to Religion, or even being goth, since so many goth kids kill someone... (well never mind the facts, 'cause  now we are trying to make a political point)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you are diluting the argument. Saying X and O can or has killed people too doesn't change the fact that we have a serious gun problem in the U.S. and largley a problem that other Countries don't have.

[Jarodaka]

PLEAES NOTE: I only edited BlackMail's post to fix the url and quote tags. No content was changed.

[Jarodaka]

BTW, this is the problem with democracy -- it allows the majority to vote away the rights of the minority.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just like gay marriage

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, people should be allowed to freely marry whomever they so desire. However, two wrongs do not make a right.

[Bpage]

On that note.. the leading cause of death of children 15 and under... BALLS

Not guns.. BALLS. Basket balls, kick balls, baseballs, play balls... get it.. BALLS. Not Guns... So, SF needs to ban BALLS now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We like our balls too much out here to ban them :woot:

[torn asunder]

naaaa most states are now issuing concealed carry permits... only 3 cities have laws like this.  which is kind of offset by the town in Georgia that requires everyone to own a gun (unless you are a clergymen or criminal)

great idea - anyone have crime stats for this town? i would think that having criminals know that everyone owns a gun would be a pretty good deterrant... i think the solution to the gun/homocide problem isn't fewer, but more guns. hell, from what i remember, there are towns in the south where you are allowed to carry weapons in the open, on holsters, etc... what do you think are the chances you're going to get held up with a gun in plain sight on your hip!? :blink that's what i thought... :erm

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

There appears to be more than one town with these laws now (two in Utah, one in MO) following Kennesaw GA

http://www.kennesaw.ga.us/index.asp?NID=137

Summary: Although the population of the City of Kennesaw and surrounding area has increased dramatically since 1981, on a per capita basis crimes rates were actually lower in 2002 than in 1981. It is also noted that crimes involving the use of a firearm are less than 2% of the total crimes reported.

[Kitten]

In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:

373 people in Germany

151 people in Canada

57 people in Australia

19 people in Japan

54 people in England and Wales, and

11,789 people in the United States

(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).

Current Populations:

Germany 82327197

Canada 32846310

Austraila 20132165

Japan 127417000

United Kingdom 60466371

United States 296478840

Deaths since Jan 1, 2005:

Germany 833994

Canada 241385

Australia 129347

Japan 1054753

United Kingdom 555920

United States 2176070

Deaths to Gun Death percentage:

Germany 4.72%

Canada 6.25%

Austraila 4.40%

Japan 1.80%

United Kingdom 9.71%

United States 0.005%

so to me it looks like the UK an Canada have bigger gun problems then the United States, you know after you figure out all the math

[The_Dark]

Look up the numbers on Brazil sometime... scary place.

[Jarodaka]

i would think that having criminals know that everyone owns a gun would be a pretty good deterrant...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Switzerland is the model here. Gun ownership is required. Crime is very low.