Marriage in general Share your Views!

[Lilith]

This is for your views on marriage between PEOPLE of any and all orientations...... I don’t care where the thread goes or which direction it takes really as long as every one remains nice. The Gay Marriage thread along with my own Real Life has prompted me to have a great deal to say on the subject of marriage in general so i thought it would be best to create its own thread. I may spill the beans on part of my life here and know this is not for your sympathy, i just need to get some things stated the way i see them on the topic.

With that being said lets begin.........

"Who cares if a marriage fails or not? So some people rush, some people don't care about the other, and some people actually find that someone that makes their life fulfilled."

If you have ever been involved in a failing marriage you would care! If you marry a child of a failed marriage you will care. If your parent’s marriage failed you would care. If your best friend marriage failed because one party had life skills and the other did not you would care? If your children’s marriage fails you will care.

You should care, because you never know when another’s failed marriage will affect your life. My husbands MOM and DAD both had more then one failed marriage and the main thought that came to mind when i read this comment was how many times i have heard my husband say, "I have never seen a successful marriage i have no idea how to do this." No one taught him and he certainly did not learn it on his own by watching his parent get it right cause well they did not succeed and frankly in part i have lived a very stressful life due to this. SOME ONE ELSES BROKEN MARRIAGES EFFECTED MY LIFE and you never know if a broken marriage would effect your life and your happiness in the future.

"Wait ... so because I've had two failed marriages (married at 18 and 21), you'd think it'd be wrong if I were to get married again?"

I don’t think that is what was being said. It is allot easier to become emotionally healthy alone then with a partner, most people never become emotionally healthy, due to various life reasons, and one should never enter in to a union with another until they are at least half at the point they can manage there own feelings etc..... Now you take extra marriages that obviously did not work out, add those feeling on top of the single person and there is more baggage. Did you ever figure out why the first one did not work or the second? Did you find true closer? Were your expectations REAL? Did you figure out what part you played in the failed attempts?

When doing a project or design if you fail at your first attempt, do you examine the reason why and figure out how to not to let that happen again? If you try again and it fails again do you not look to other for suggestion and help, do you rethink everything you did? Well with marriage it is a project, if you failed even once it might be wise to follow the same step you would to correct past problem before you make an attempt at it again. Trust me it really does take two people to destroy a relationship, just because one might have done more then the other does not mean the lesser wrong should not look to improve itself. If you have not taken the time to fix your own personal problems and see what happened the first few time around, why bother going in to another situation that is bound for disaster, If you don’t know how to fix a broken toy do you try any how or do you seek advice from some one who knows how to do it?

If you have been married once and it ended in divorce you would be a fool to think that you don’t have any issues that need to be sorted out as well as your X does. I would get those sorted out before i placed my self in another position to cause more hurt to my self and others.

LOVE IS NOT AT ALL WHAT KEEPS A MARRIAGE TOGETHER! Trust me i know!

Two emotionally healthy people who want to actually work at it, two people who are not dealing with a life time of there own past hurt and issues is partly what keep a marriage together.

Perhaps i just see it a little clearly Due to a failing marriage, a bit of counseling, a bit of self learning, a bit of examining my partner and my self etc.....I have learned My marriage would have never reached the failing point if My husband and I were both Emotionally healthy from the beginning.

My advice now a days to any one who wants to get married, go concur your own demons make sure you are an emotionally whole person before you join forces with another person who is not emotionally whole. If you have not done that then one can never get married thinking “we will never divorce” as you never know the type of horrible issues that will arise in the future and if you are not emotionally prepared it will break you and the marriage and i am sure by then some kids and friends etc..........

I personally think it would be wise for any couple looking to marry to spend a great deal of time with a counselor before the I DO's, i mean if you really want it to work why not start the duties of working on it before you have any Extra Issues like cheating, debt, kids, in laws, etc..... Let’s keep it fixed before it is even near a broken point.

My advice goes to all types of people of all ages of all orientations married or not. Before you look to share you life with another person make sure you have something concrete and healthy to share.

[Blackmail]

divore is an ugly and horrible thing and it rises to tragedy levels when a child is involved.

also, I do not understand infidelity in a marriage at all. why would anyone do this? I do not have respect for people who cheat on their spouses.

[Rayne]

Did you ever figure out why the first one did not work or the second? Did you find true closer? Were your expectations REAL? Did you figure out what part you played in the failed attempts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To answer your questions Lilith ... yes. First was considered failed when the state prosecuted him for domestic violence when he landed me in the hospital ... and polygamy charges ... but that's a whole different story that I'm not going to get into ...

Second one pretty much was a mutual decision between the two of us that it never should have happened in the first place. Damn the military for having to be married to recieve benefits. Things happened afterwards that have just re-inforced that it was a very good decision between the two of us. We're usually able to solve things amicably, which is good because we have three children together (my oldest is from my first marriage).

As I stated before, I can see why (NOW) why neither one of them should have happened. I think I am older and have grown more as a person to make a reasonable and better decision, should I find myself in that situation again.

[Lilith]

To answer your questions Lilith ... yes. First was considered failed when the state prosecuted him for domestic violence when he landed me in the hospital ... and polygamy charges ... but that's a whole different story that I'm not going to get into ...

Second one pretty much was a mutual decision between the two of us that it never should have happened in the first place. Damn the military for having to be married to recieve benefits. Things happened afterwards that have just re-inforced that it was a very good decision between the two of us. We're usually able to solve things amicably, which is good because we have three children together (my oldest is from my first marriage).

As I stated before, I can see why (NOW) why neither one of them should have happened. I think I am older and have grown more as a person to make a reasonable and better decision, should I find myself in that situation again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would say then you have looked and examined you have and hopefully are taking the time to make you work, the point i was seeing from the other thread was that most people dont spend the time in the first palce to even relaise what went wrong. People most of the time dont even realise when they have issues that need to be handled, my husband for example had no clue why other no longer want to be around him, i can see why but he cant, i went through a time of this in my own life and i could not see it for my self, i need extra help he needs extra help most of us need extra help. I dont think the point was that no one should remarry after one or more failed attempts but people who have one or more failed attmpts need to stop and see what actually happend the first few times around should rethink the decision or look at it carefully befor they seek marriage out again.

As allwasy we do not know your whole story, my advice may be aplicable to you or it may not, only you can decided that, i was just saw a compelty diffrent poitn then what i think you did and i was expalining what i saw and in a way saying that i perosnlly dont think you should refrain from marriage again, just dont enter in to it lightly.

[Homicidalheathen]

My views and lifestyle are just too different for this question. All it would do is make people hate me or not understand me so I am keeping my mouth shut. You will probably only get mainstream answers from anyone on here these days........unless they are single.

[Lilith]

I gues i just wanted to add, iam comming from view point of a person who is crrently dealing witha marriage that is failing and has been for soem time, and we just got to point where we both are making an effort to make it work, it has taken us a year for us both to get at this point, one was ready a long time ago and the other well simply took a bit more time.

I am not trying to bash any one, i just know if i had been emotionally healthy 8 years ago as a single person, and so was my partner my kids would not be seeing the turmiol we encounter on a daily basis around here.

I personally think that weather or not a person thinks they need counseling for marriage or peronal issues they should go bettr to know the "RIGHT" way to handle thing in the first palce, it avoids allot of unnecissary extreamly hurtful and damaging conflict.

[The_Dark]

Marrige is one of the most important decisions that a person can make. Far too many people do it lightly or before they are ready. It's not a game... it's not the same as dating. If affects everyone you come in contact with on some level.

Lilith.. Good Luck.

[Lilith]

With allot of hard work and luck..... it can work.

[The_Dark]

Yes it can. Look at me and my wife... She's put up with me (I admit to being a complete ass at times) for over 10 years and our biggest fight was over who drank the last of the Coke.

[Brenda Starrr]

I've been married twice now.

My ex is an incredibly handsome man. I was suffering from low self-esteem. I couldn't believe that such a gorgeous man would want me, but he did. Let's just say that things didn't work out, as details aren't going to be given here. It was both our faults. Mine for not being stronger. I felt deep down inside that it wouldn't last. I was right.

Wayne is different in so many ways. He treats me like gold. He takes amazing care of my kids and I. He believes in me. He believes in the kids. I'm beautiful to him, no matter what. Even yesterday, while I was pretty much crippled with pain, he told me that I was pretty. We joked about me being on crutches like Tiny Tim. He made sure that I had EVERYTHING I needed. I've never felt so strongly about a relationship. We're able to joke with each other in a way that I couldn't with my ex. I feel very, very lucky.

Oh yeah, Wayne is sexy too!!

[saechalyn]

I think another part of the reason a lot of marriages fail is the incredible social pressure to get married for marriage’s sake, because it’s just what you’re supposed to do when you’re an adult. This attitude drives me up the wall. People find out I’m 27 and not only unmarried, but that I’ve never been married and they look at me like I have six heads. People I barely know ask why I’m not married and, while they don’t say it explicitly, what I hear is “Why doesn’t anyone want to marry you? What’s wrong with you?” And I don’t even have family of my own so it’s not like relatives are saying these things. When people have parents, aunts, etc putting this kind of pressure on it becomes tenfold.

I know that relationships take work and no marriage is always easy. I’m not saying people should wait until the Perfect man or woman comes along because perfection does not exist. But I do think there is such thing as waiting until the right person and the right circumstances exist before making a commitment.

[Homicidalheathen]

I don't think the same thing works for everyone, and that people grow apart while growing together and if you cannot except change then don't do it. Give each other room to grow. Also, live together for a couple years first at least.

Too me it is just a legal piece of paper, a formal ceremony......you could do the same thing and just make a promise to be together and stick to it.

But that is the problem. Too many people give up easy these days. I have seen people do it and regret it. Or end up with someone just like who they were with anyway. I don't get that. Why go through all of that if you were just as happy? Personally I don't believe in doing it more than once so this is it for me. I will not give up without a heck of a fight.

[Lilith]

I've been married twice now.

My ex is an incredibly handsome man. I was suffering from low self-esteem. I couldn't believe that such a gorgeous man would want me, but he did. Let's just say that things didn't work out, as details aren't going to be given here. It was both our faults. Mine for not being stronger. I felt deep down inside that it wouldn't last. I was right.

Wayne is different in so many ways. He treats me like gold. He takes amazing care of my kids and I. He believes in me. He believes in the kids. I'm beautiful to him, no matter what. Even yesterday, while I was pretty much crippled with pain, he told me that I was pretty. We joked about me being on crutches like Tiny Tim. He made sure that I had EVERYTHING I needed.  I've never felt so strongly about a relationship. We're able to joke with each other in a way that I couldn't with my ex. I feel very, very lucky.

Oh yeah, Wayne is sexy too!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Brenda i give you all of credit, what you stated seemed to me that you forogt what he did wrong for a minute afterward and looked to make you self a better person for you. What i am curious is befor you married again, did you feel like you had grown better as an indivual, did you spend time working on just Brenda? Do you see that as being part of the reason why your raltionship with wayne is better, or maybe you were capable of picking a more "compatiable" person becasue you knew yourself better? I am not trying to be personal, so no details needed, i am just curious.

what i see allot of in many failed marriages is where one of the two will get so wrapped up with the wrong doings of the other person and forget to loook at them selves and see What they could have learned from the expeirience, then go out n about get married angain and make some of the same mistakes and end up in another failed marriage. They just dotn see where they could have been at fault i guess. This also lead me to believe this may be where allot of marriage just simply fail becasue one will grow as an indiviual and the other wont or is really trialing behind in the growth cycle as a person so 1 will get i guess fed up and stopp trying as well. I dont want to say stya in soemthing bad if it is not working, but i guess i just see to many people give up rather quickly.

then on the other hand after you do try several means to make it better and to no avial things are just as bad, how do you know when it tis time to call it quits?

Then after it is finished i dont think it time to stop working on what ever issues that ay still be looming.

I dont know i guess i am learning allot and the more i learn the more i realize that, i for one took this whole thing allot lighter then i really should have, and if nothing else let me be an example of things to deffinatly think about befor you tie the not for the first time or second or third etc.......

I also guess part of my asking and creating this thread was simply to learn how other view marriage in any way. I see several couple on here who seemn to both be Emotionally helathy indivuals as well as a couple, i know many of you have been through this whole thing before, and I need to i gues maybe bounce some of my own thoughts about this to others.

Like i said we are currently both at a point where we want to make it work, this is one avanue i have choosen to help me learn about myself and where i might be wrong, to gain idea how i could make it work, and to learn how other think........

[Brenda Starrr]

What i am curious is befor you married again, did you feel like you had grown better as an indivual, did you spend time working on just Brenda? Do you see that as being part of the reason why your raltionship with wayne is better, or maybe you were capable of picking a more "compatiable" person becasue you knew yourself better? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I definitely grew into a different individual, but it was a very slow process. I was shocked that I had the strength to leave. I WAS afraid of him. I was afraid FOR him. It took me a very long time to find out who I am. Wayne helped me with that by allowing me to experiment, I guess. It's hard to explain.

[Steven]

This is for your views on marriage between PEOPLE of any and all orientations...... I don’t care where the thread goes or which direction it takes really as long as every one remains nice. The Gay Marriage thread along with my own Real Life has prompted me to have a great deal to say on the subject of marriage in general so i thought it would be best to create its own thread.  I may spill the beans on part of my life here and know this is not for your sympathy, i just need to get some things stated the way i see them on the topic.

With that being said lets begin.........

"Who cares if a marriage fails or not? So some people rush, some people don't care about the other, and some people actually find that someone that makes their life fulfilled."

If you have ever been involved in a failing marriage you would care! If you marry a child of a failed marriage you will care. If your parent’s marriage failed you would care. If your best friend marriage failed because one party had life skills and the other did not you would care?  If your children’s marriage fails you will care.

You should care, because you never know when another’s failed marriage will affect your life. My husbands MOM and DAD both had more then one failed marriage and the main thought that came to mind when i read this comment was how many times i have heard my husband say, "I have never seen a successful marriage i have no idea how to do this."  No one taught him and he certainly did not learn it on his own by watching his parent get it right cause well they did not succeed and frankly in part i have lived a very stressful life due to this. SOME ONE ELSES  BROKEN MARRIAGES EFFECTED MY LIFE and you never know if a broken marriage would effect your life and your happiness in the future.

"Wait ... so because I've had two failed marriages (married at 18 and 21), you'd think it'd be wrong if I were to get married again?"

I don’t think that is what was being said. It is allot easier to become emotionally healthy alone then with a partner, most people never become emotionally healthy, due to various life reasons, and one should never enter in to a union with another until they are at least half at the point they can manage there own feelings etc..... Now you take extra marriages that obviously did not work out, add those feeling on top of the single person and there is more baggage. Did you ever figure out why the first one did not work or the second? Did you find true closer? Were your expectations REAL? Did you figure out what part you played in the failed attempts?

When doing a project or design if you fail at your first attempt, do you examine the reason why and figure out how to not to let that happen again? If you try again and it fails again do you not look to other for suggestion and help, do you rethink everything you did? Well with marriage it is a project, if you failed even once it might be wise to follow the same step you would to correct past problem before you make an attempt at it again. Trust me it really does take two people to destroy a relationship, just because one might have done more then the other does  not mean the lesser wrong should not look to improve itself. If you have not taken the time to fix your own personal problems and see what happened the first few time around, why bother going in to another situation that is bound for disaster, If you don’t know how to fix a broken toy do you try any how or do you seek advice from some one who knows how to do it?

If you have been married once and it ended in divorce you would be a fool to think that you don’t have any issues that need to be sorted out as well as your X does. I would get those sorted out before i placed my self in another position to cause more hurt to my self and others.

LOVE IS NOT AT ALL WHAT KEEPS A MARRIAGE TOGETHER! Trust me i know!

Two emotionally healthy people who want to actually work at it, two people who are not dealing with a life time of there own past hurt and issues is partly what keep a marriage together.

Perhaps i just see it a little clearly  Due to a failing marriage, a bit of counseling, a bit of self learning, a bit of examining my partner and my self etc.....I have learned  My marriage would have never reached the failing point if My husband and I were both Emotionally healthy from the beginning.

My advice now a days to any one who wants to get married, go concur your own demons make sure you are an emotionally whole person before you join forces with another person who is not emotionally whole.  If you have not done that then one can never get married  thinking “we will never divorce” as you never know the type of horrible issues that will arise in the future and if you are not emotionally prepared it will break you and the marriage and i am sure by then some kids and friends etc..........

I personally think it would be wise for any couple looking to marry to spend a great deal of time with a counselor before the  I DO's, i mean if you really want it to work why not start the duties of working on it before you have any Extra Issues like cheating, debt, kids, in laws, etc..... Let’s keep it fixed before it is even near a broken point.

My advice goes to all types of people of all ages of all orientations married or not. Before you look to share you life with another person make sure you have something concrete and healthy to share.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

great job here Lilith, I liked very much how you brought all of this back home.

Kudos to you.

Steven

[Onyx]

Like i said we are currently both at a point where we want to make it work, this is one avanue i have choosen to help me learn about myself and where i might be wrong,  to gain idea how i could make it work, and to learn how other think........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is exactly what you both need to make it work.

I had marriage counseling at about 10 years into my marriage, both separate counseling and together. He didn't show up for most of the appointments, but it was recommended I should leave the marriage as soon as possible for the sake of myself and my child. I stayed for 7 more years and unfortunately things did get worse. Second counselor right before the divorce happened told me the same thing. There's just no way to make it work when only one of you does nearly all the giving, and all the giving in. No cooperation = no relationship.

With both of you interested in staying together and both of you giving to each other I find it hard to see how you can fail.

That is what was missing in a lot of my past relationships, including my marriage. I did have a few healthy relationships which is why I haven't given up all hope. It makes a huge difference when both of you are willing to give and take.

[Draco1958]

Where do I start. Married 13 yrs, 11 yrs together, 2 yrs separated, not including 2 yrs of being together before we got married. I was 31 when I got married. Wife was 26. While I wanted to be married, I felt I was getting too old to be single, I was just happy to have a real girlfriend. She wanted to get married. So after 2 yrs of being together, about half of which we lived together we got married. Her mother died a week later of cancer. In time I found out her push for us to get married was so her Mom would see her married to a nice guy before she passed. That was red flag number two. My being unsure of getting married should have been red flag number one. But I believed I was in love and she was the one for me. After the I do's I found out exactly how she felt and it wasn't love. She just wanted a cushion for emotional support. Other than that she pretty much didn't want alot to do with me. Now I can understand the initial problems with her Mom passing but years down the road it didn't change. Her friends always came first. I put up with it thinking a good husband will give his wife her space, even tho that space was going to a friend's house and spending the night while working on computer stuff. Sex became pretty much non-existant but again, I went with it to make her happy and not put pressure on her. She would call me at work and start arguments and say well you got what you wanted, you got your argument even tho I couldn't say much at work.

Then she started her own company, with me helping with paperwork, flyers and such. Off she travelled coast to coast, her travel paid for, with the intent of bringing more money into the house. yet the money never made it and excuses followed, "Well the actor isn't working and needed all the money so I let him have it". Then I found out thru a mutual friend that the people she was dealing with didn't even know she was married. Then the accusations of cheating on her, which I wasn't doing. Fianlly sex became available, provided I was a good boy and got my assigned chores done for the week as asked then I got some. This was about once every few months. She walked out the door Oct of 2000 and called me 4 months later to say she felt we should divorce. Part of her reasoning was that she couldn't deal with my Mom being in a nursing home. Then while going thru old paperwork in storage, I found a love letter written to my ex from a guy she met on a weekend trip out of state expressing how much he missed her lying next to him. Sad part is that I truly believed she didn't cheat on me, talk about a kick in the heart.

So to figure out from here.

1. Be sure both parties really want to be married, not just to each other but ready for the idea and commitment of marriage.

2. Pay attention to what is going on in your life and his/hers. There can sometimes be a problem looming.

3. Communication, always keep the lines open, don't start jumping on what is said, listen and respond.

4. Never use sex as a reward or treat like rewarding a pet for doing a trick. It demeans both parties.

5. Don't call your significant other at work just to argue about something, that puts one in a corner and can illicit a very aggressive response verbally, maybe even physically in the long run.

6. Make sure that the fun and compatability at the beginning keeps going after the ceremony.(It didn't for me)

So now you know my sad story. I have nothing against marriage but I will be more sure if I get married again. Food for thought.

[Lilith]

Hmph.... it surprises me that more people dont have any thoughts to share.......

Such a wide open topic, i know so many of you have been through a marriage...... still married etc........ No Personal advice to despense in depth, in general, no "what worked for us was ....." ? No stories to make one think?

It intregues me that often we can empty out our thoughts and opions/advice on so many topics freely almost jump on the oprotnuity to do so but when given/asked to do so on such a major Life alternintg topic as marraige we clam up as a whole or we become reserved and refrain from being real almost. I am not just suggesting that about this thread alone as i see it others about life altering topics and i feel the same intregue.

ahh well it all makes me think.... maybe to much.

For those who have been through rough time but stayed toegther what did it take for you to make it to today? Is the person you lay down the same person you married? Is that a good or bad thing?

How does all this work?

For those who choose to Divorce what did it take for you to come to a clear decision to do so? What would it take for you to remarry? How you did you come to closer for yourself?

Give me models of what you see as a good or bad marriage, make em up, be honest, just share your thoughts.

"learn from working models"

[JaneDead]

Hmph.... it surprises me that more people dont have any thoughts to share.......

How does all this work?

"learn from working models"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this might come across as insulting to some people here but - it does not suprise me that people here don't have any good "advice" to give you.

so many many people here have very jaded views on love and relationships as it is. seems to me many would not even KNOW how to make a relationship work out, let alone a marriage.

with the exception of steven, the dark, brenda, critter (and some others, i know ) who often have wonderful things to say about their spouses and marriage - how many others on here do you REALLY see who do the same?

also like HH pointed out - some have way different views in the first place so they can't really give you advice fitting to your situation/views on marriage.

bottom line is - there is not easy answer to "how does all this work". many ways to do that i think :

go into it knowing what you both want and expect. good communication. trust. similar if not the same goals. respect. honesty. so many many other things but some basic fundemental things i believe are key. once one of these things are broken or not being lived up to you start to have problems.

once you have these problems, issues, things not going as you thought they would... then what? there is no simple easy answer. there just isn't. you can start to learn stuff about yourself and the other person you didn't know before but how you both deal with it afterwards is what matters. i dont' think anyone out there can tell you what the "right thing" is to do at that point. is there A right thing to do when that happens?

sure you might know what you want or think and they might know what they want or think but that doesn't mean that your ideas and feelings will come together to an ideal conclusion. sometimes you will question what you even want anymore. or what to do. what do i do now?? how did i get here? this is not what i thought this was going to be like.

i am sure you already know all this but really, what else is there to say that you don't already know? what else can be said that you might need to figure out on your own still?

so how does it all work? how does it all work once there are problems that need to be fixed? with communication, and respect, all of the things you wanted in the beginning but with the acceptance that some things probably have to change. and hopefully in that case you and your partner can do it together as a couple and as individuals.

i could go on and on i suppose but i feel at some point i will just start saying the same stuff over and over :cheerful

[phee]

I was married once it was great....

Many reasons ended it....

[saechalyn]

so many many people here have very jaded views on love and relationships as it is. seems to me many would not even KNOW how to make a relationship work out, let alone a marriage

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pretty much, yeah.

[Steven]

Laura and I learned how to have a good marriage thru an organization called Marriage ministries International. ANd - thru a few years of mentoring from an older married couple who worked with us.

I know, I know, the whole Bible thumping thigns sounds outdated and out of touch, but I'll share a few things I learned from that dusty black book....

1) We never learned our roles or how to embrace them. At work, I have a role, somethign that adds to the overall success of the business. Same thing in marriage, I have roles. For example, I was a shitty provider. I just was. I never really applied myself or pushed for more, I had more fear of failure than concern for growth. ANd that caused my wife to sustain tension, to fear for our future, to resent our present, and to basically have to step in for my shortcomings, which hardly creates a feeling of appreciation.

2) We were not a team. I had my way, she had her way. But we never really had our way.

3) We both were failures in the forgiveness department. We both learned to quietly harbor resentment and distrust, which is a love killer.

4) I had no vision, no plan, no goal for our marriage, except to be married. We were stagnant.

5) We had no tried and true methods of reaching agreement. What we had instead was power struggles. Agendas. Territory.

6) We had never taken stock of our natural gifts, and used them togethor. We had no real "flow".

7) We understood the basic concept of sowing and reaping, but never intentionally sowed into our marriage with expectation to reap health and growth.

8) We had never learned to look at our individual life patterns - how we grew up - what our values were - so that we could identify areas of breakdown, and identify areas of strength. Therefore we had no vision. We were reactive, never proactive.

thats a just a few things.

but once we started to understand the working model, we had purpose. With purpose we had a plan and therefore a mutually agreed upon place to return to during times of trial. We discovered that we had the ability to make things happen, and a common language.

[Lilith]

I would welcome the jaded views, cause in sense i guess i am jaded about Love and marriage my self. I welcome the conflicting views of those with traditional relationship and those with out, SO HH if you have anything to add please do, weather or not they apply I do find your thoughts to be informative and do make me think.

JD LOL You mentioned names of those i would look to as a Good working model. :grin

I never expected an easy answer I knew it was not easy or i would have not asked. I was just looking for other thoughts, ideas of there own situation, Not necessarily what will work best for just me, just an idea of how others have been through all of this weather or not the out come was good or bad.

I don’t know sometime i feel like i am doing it all on my own, and the more i learn of me the more i seek advice the less i am listened to, the more i here What are you better then me, the more i meat with a brick wall, the more i think this is never going to work.

I say we are both at a point where we both want to work on things and we both say it, but it seems that only one of us are really doing any actual work, research, personal growth, effort in to making it work. It like only one of us can see what it really takes and only one of us is ready to put forth the full effort. And when it is suggested that the other seek some type of external help for personal growth it erupts, but yet in years past the same one who discounts things suggested now had pushed for the other to seek out her own external help, and she did and since then has been working on it. With that being said in a some what none pointing figure way, if that is possible, when you know you cant be the one to help another or get another to realize it might be time for them to stop and honestly look at them selves to help facilitate a a more productive working environment fo r the marriage what are you left to do?

Honestly, the shit hit the fan on Jan 8 after groundhoggin for many years, i was done, but being the understanding person i am, knowing if a person really wants to be better they will be with allot of hard work and being that i have no problem being supportive, I choose not to be done and further work on me and us, and i feel like i am the only one who follows any damn suggestions, then it get frustrating when we sit in counseling and they suggest things i already suggested and nothing get accomplished, except for me writing an awful lot and not getting much of anything else done but trying to figure all this shit out.

I know personal growth and the growth of a marriage takes time so i am willing to take the time to work on it, but at the same time i refuse to sit back and waste the time while i watch other waste the time, so i grow and become less content with the current and the other ends up being lost as to what happen cause they see it as they did do something to improve.

Then something will happen and i will see it as an indication of bigger problems, then i will look over the past and realize that problem has always been there, and i knew it but i blew it off as a BOO BOO........ and i knew logically if it was a boo boo it most likely would not happen as often as it does......

I also know that there are two sides to every story, and i know i have my own faults, some i realize some i don’t, some i work on some i don’t.

I know i am not afraid of being alone so staying is not a result of that, i know i can afford what i have purely on my own, perhaps even more so on my own. I know i am cute enough to at least catch the eye of another, i know my inner qualities are good enough to keep another coming back, (although i have never and i would never entertain the idea of another person ~other then theory as stated here~ until there was clear cut and dry end).

I really hope that the single people read through this and seriously think before they decided to marry, look at your partners work ethics, if you have good one and they don’t it will eventually drive you mad, take a look at the relationships between them and friends, really pay attention how they treat other people in general it could indicate how they treat you when behind closed doors and guards are let down.

Ughhhh all these things that i could have looked at and known from day one we needed help if we wanted to be together.

Ughh i rambled..... Frustration will do that to a person.

[Shade Everdark]

Ima die old, bitter, and angry.

And I'm okay with that, because I have to be.

[Rayne]

Hmm ... my first marriage I was beat and he moved his wife before me (whom he was also still married to when he married me) back in with us and expected me to be fine with that ... there's like a million other reasons ...

My second marriage ... sexual preference became an issue ... along with some other points. He paints doorknobs ... (Phee, stop laughing).

... I can totally see how that is totally all my fault. (sarcasm)

I'm not saying I wasn't to blame some. I'm not completely innocent ... but it bothers me that others are looking down on me assuming that I must be "jaded".