Islam/Racism/World View

[phee]

9/11, Insurgents, Hamas, Cartoon Riots...

I am starting to feel a bit pissed off...

I try to be an open minded person, I try not to do group judgements, I try to entertain all possible points of view, and try to be respectful, and such... I even understand why a lot of the Muslim world would be pissed off at the U.S. government... We have done some Nasty NASTY things in the last century (The Shaw in Iran)

But I am tired for being hated in this sick and violent way... Am I getting brainwashed into feeling this way by Western Media? Am I a victem of the same propoganda in a different form that causes the violence in the Middle East? They get a black and white picture of us... do we get one of them?

Just saying this because I am tired of being hated by people I have never met, for things that I have never done... I am starting to not be as open minded as before, and that bugs me... When I heard that people have now been KILLED about an offensive CARTOON... Part of me now just kind of goes: "figures, 'those people' seem to love an excuse to go nuts and be violent" And I never felt that way before... After 9/11 Americans destroyed and attacked some Muslim property... but that was because 3000 + people were murdered.... Not a cartoon....

I could go on and on... but I just wanted to see if anybody else was disturbed by this?

[paradox]

Am I getting brainwashed into feeling this way by Western Media? Am I a victem of the same propoganda in a different form that causes the violence in the Middle East? They get a black and white picture of us... do we get one of them?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

in a word, yes.

however, that doesnt even really begin to cover the issue. the nations of the West have meddled in the middle east for hundreds of years now, and for that we are hated, right or wrong. does this justify their behavior? not really. nor do i believe that we would change their attitudes by adjusting our behavior.

what the media shows is the worst of the middle east. they have been doing so for a long time. but its not all like that. not everyone hates us.

one of my classes this semester is for oral history. what i didnt realize at the time is that this class is cross-listed under about 5 different headings, but the main one is near east studies. thats not a problem, though near east studies isnt exactly my bag, its just the context in which the course is framed.

anyway, point is, we took a trip to the Arab American Museum in dearborn. one of their dispalys was a collage of how arabs are depicted in mainstream american media: tv, movies etc. across the room was a collage of average arab americans.

the two collections could not be more differnt.

juxtaposed with this was a screen that ran a short film asking people in a "man-on-the-street" sort of way when was the last time they saw an arab person on TV. the answers where alot of "ums".

now, the film itself may be cut to present a certain view, but the pictures speak for themselves. in the last 100 years, arabs have been largely negatively and/or streotypically portrayed in american and western media. we have a preconcieved notion of these people as all being bloodthirsty savages and generally evil bastards.

its true that there are some truely nasty folks out there, but its largely the actions of small fundamentalist groups that have been used to portray a much larger population unfairly.

yes, america and the west are mighty unpopular in the middle east right now, whether that position is justified or not. but the middle east is also mighty unpopular here right now, and one might fairly say that that sentiment is also unjustified in many ways.

its a sticky situation. neither side particularly likes the other and have a long, bad history together. both sides are all too willing to let things crumble so that they can find justification for their acts. but, by and large, most of the people on either side are just swept along by a vocal minority that is willing to misrepresent anything to garner support for their crusade.

the cartoons werent exactly sensitive to the current situation and certainly arent helping anything. then again, it absolutely does not justify the response either. some people are just waiting for any old excuse to come along, and thats what needs to be addressed.

as i said, theres a long history here, and nothing is going to change that perspective over night. its going to take a long, long time, probably longer than the lives of even our children or grandchildren, til the west and the east can really move towards a real concilliation.

[Onyx]

The whole thing is such a complicated mess.

I truly wish it were possible for every country to just stay the hell out of each other's business.

[The_Dark]

We are told that Islam is peacfull and that it rejects violence... the part that gets glossed over is that the peace and non-violence is only for those that accept Islam as a way of life. For those that reject secular rule and give everything over to Islamic Law. Anything else is wrong in thier eyes. The things that are taught in the mosks are not what we are told about in the media for the most part. One of the things you most likely dont know.... If you allow a Mosk to be built in your city.. it's now an Islamic city and is forever subject to Islamic law. Another? Islam is not complete until the WHOLE world is subject to Islamic law. Islamic law is barbaric at best and based on the Arabic culture of 2000 years ago. Most crimes are met with death or dismemberment. There are many cases where murdering a woman or a child are ok by thier culture.

[phee]

We are told that Islam is peacfull and that it rejects violence... the part that gets glossed over is that  the peace and non-violence is only for those that accept Islam as a way of life. For those that reject secular rule and give everything over to Islamic Law. Anything else is wrong in thier eyes. The things that are taught in the mosks are not what we are told about in the media for the most part. One of the things you most likely dont know....  If you allow a Mosk to be built in your city.. it's now an Islamic city and is forever subject to Islamic law. Another? Islam is not complete until the WHOLE world is subject to Islamic law. Islamic law is barbaric at best and based on the Arabic culture of 2000 years ago. Most crimes are met with death or dismemberment. There are many cases where murdering a woman or a child are ok by thier culture.

This is what I am talking about... thanks Dark... mixed messages are abound... and like most missionary religions... this one has almost no tolerence once it is under Islamic law... there is NO ROOM for other religions, beliefs, or points of view really...

This doesn't mean that all Muslims believe this, but by nature the religion (as well as some branches of Christianity are "convert or die"

[paradox]

We are told that Islam is peacfull and that it rejects violence... the part that gets glossed over is that  the peace and non-violence is only for those that accept Islam as a way of life. For those that reject secular rule and give everything over to Islamic Law. Anything else is wrong in thier eyes. The things that are taught in the mosks are not what we are told about in the media for the most part. One of the things you most likely dont know....  If you allow a Mosk to be built in your city.. it's now an Islamic city and is forever subject to Islamic law. Another? Islam is not complete until the WHOLE world is subject to Islamic law. Islamic law is barbaric at best and based on the Arabic culture of 2000 years ago. Most crimes are met with death or dismemberment. There are many cases where murdering a woman or a child are ok by thier culture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this is a fundamentalist view. there are christians who hold the same world view. some might even say they run our country.

this view of islam is in the minority for all the muslims i know. my wife, her mother and her sisters all practice or did practice islam to one degree or another. there are no shortage of mosques in south east michigan, yet we are not an islamic state by any stretch.

simply put, this is exactly the streotype that is propegated in mainstream media.

[The_Dark]

btw... Denmark, where the cartoons were first published has something you may be familure with... three things actually... Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Expression and Freedom of the Press.

[paradox]

yup. what yer point? that europeans are superior to "those brown people"? <_<

[phee]

Thats the thing... these were printed in Denmark and then shown in Muslim countries (as well as some that were not published btw) by Imams...

But this latest thing is only a part of a larger problem... I can't speak for the leaders of this country but I know my daughter is an American, therefore she is evil in their (meaning those who would hurt us) eyes... It is pissing me off that they would kill her just because she lives in this country and her father (me) is an American... I KNOW this isn't all or even most Muslims, but hey... Hamas is now the elected government in Palistien...

[The_Dark]

yup.  what yer point? that europeans are superior to "those brown people"? <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where did I say anything at all like that? Don't put words in my mouth.

No one's religion trumps anyone else's basic rights.

[The_Dark]

Another point.. a true Muslim is by definition a fundimentalist. It's the radical fundimentalists that give the rest a bad name.

[phee]

Another point.. a true Muslim is by definition a fundimentalist. It's the radical fundimentalists that give the rest a bad name.

This is true

[phee]

Did anybody see how "some" of the people in Iraq celebrated Mohammeds Grandson's birthday?

[paradox]

Where did I say anything at all like that? Don't put words in my mouth.

No one's religion trumps anyone else's basic rights.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

btw... Denmark, where the cartoons were first published has something you may be familure with... three things actually... Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Expression and Freedom of the Press.

so what your point then? when you say things like this, it give the impression, at least in my opinion, that you believe the people in denmark to have some form of superiority over those in islamic states.

we have those freedoms here, too, but that doesnt stop the US and the people that live in it from being the perpetrators of plenty of attrocities that trample the rights of others. eg, the whole gay marriage issue. marriage is not a religeous institution in the US, it is a legal status, yet the administration is happy to use religeon to justify their position on gay marriage. we also have separation of church and state, in name at least, yet US policy, both foreign and domestic seems to be drawing ever closer to a mixing of church and state. there are plenty of people who would love to see america officially called a Christian Nation.

Another point.. a true Muslim is by definition a fundimentalist. It's the radical fundimentalists that give the rest a bad name.

and following this logic, the only true christian is a fundamentalist. somehow, though, i think youll find many who disagree with that.

[The_Dark]

I'm sorry if you missed it my point, I thought I had spelled it out clearly... I'll say it again....

No one's religion trumps anyone else's basic rights.

Thats my point. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm sorry if I don't have the words to make you understand it.

We are not talking about your perceived problems within the United States. We have and will debate those things in other threads.

I'm also sorry if you took offense with my statement about true Muslims... perhaps you should take it up with the Muslim Scholar I stole the quote from. His name is Mohammad K. Azarian and here is the webpage which he contributes too...

http://muslim-canada.org/Islam_myths.htm

And your wrong, I dont disagree. A good portion of Christians are infact fundamentalists... but I would wager the number is far lower in Christian circles than Muslim. My reasoning is that I cant think of any Christian culture where schools only teach the Bible and nothing else to children...

[phee]

I really just have a problem with any group that would want my daughter dead just because she was born here and raised here...

Having a problem with me is one thing... but ... you know

[paradox]

note your clairification came in a later post. hence your original statement was thrown out there with seeming irrelavance.

as for the US, im merely turing the perceptions around and making equally sweeping statements about it as you are making about islam.

im sure that the several fellow students in my class who are islamic have been taught something other than the qu'ran, as have several of my in-laws.

one of my sisters-in-law live in abu dhabi in the UAE, with her husband and their 3 children. they are not taught only the qu'ran, though im sure they have learned about that too, as many christians learn about the bible.

it would be very neat and convient (actually, it wouldnt, but hey) if "They" all hated "Us", but that simply isnt the case. a significant majority of the worlds muslims actual dont follow the radical fundamentalists. much like the spanish conquistadors or the english protestants, who also terrorized and killed americans, the muslim extremists are merely a zealous, active and vocal minority of their religion.

[Steven]

We are told that Islam is peacfull and that it rejects violence... the part that gets glossed over is that  the peace and non-violence is only for those that accept Islam as a way of life. For those that reject secular rule and give everything over to Islamic Law. Anything else is wrong in thier eyes. The things that are taught in the mosks are not what we are told about in the media for the most part. One of the things you most likely dont know....  If you allow a Mosk to be built in your city.. it's now an Islamic city and is forever subject to Islamic law. Another? Islam is not complete until the WHOLE world is subject to Islamic law. Islamic law is barbaric at best and based on the Arabic culture of 2000 years ago. Most crimes are met with death or dismemberment. There are many cases where murdering a woman or a child are ok by thier culture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I dont know any muslims.

I'm sure there are wonderful examples of good people of this faith.

some things that do intrigue me however....

the Quran (or Koran) is also plainly translated into: "Book of the The Law" (rather rigid)

Al-LAH translates into "THE God" (quite impersonal)

is-LAM translates into "submission"

in this faith it has often been taught that the only people who can have absolute conviction of their eternal security are those who become martyrs.

Steven

[phee]

Islam I thought translated to: Peace, like Salam?

[The_Dark]

Again, your putting words in my mouth.. I have never said that they all hate us...

I don't draw my conclusion from just westeren media and western scholars. Nor on my limited experiances.

I study history from every sorce I can. Then I study the Historiography of the period and region. To me, this gives a more complete picture of what really happened. Knowing the context of the writer helps to understand the interpretation of events. History is not always written by the victor, though it usually is.

Here's a question... what started the Crusades?

[phee]

Again, your putting words in my mouth.. I have never said that they all hate us...

I don't draw my conclusion from just westeren media and western scholars. Nor on my limited experiances.

I study history from every sorce I can. Then I study the Historiography of the period and region. To me, this gives a more complete picture of what really happened. Knowing the context of the writer helps to understand the interpretation of events. History is not always written by the victor, though it usually is.

Here's a question... what started the Crusades?

The Chrusades I was taught in my History of Western Religons class at EMU, were mainly economic, not religiously based, religion was used as the tool in which to recrute armys to send east... This is over simplifying a hell of a lot I know

[Steven]

Islam I thought translated to: Peace, like Salam?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hmmmm.....not what I've been taught.....very interesting......

...any translation for the otehr words I cited?

[Steven]

A)  this is a fundamentalist view.  there are christians who hold the same  world view.  some might even say they run our country.

B)  simply put, this is exactly the streotype that is propegated in mainstream media.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

interesting conversation.

my lighthearted rebuttal:

A) If "Fundamentalist" Christians (an oxymoron by the way but then again i am a rebel) truly ran this country you'd see it reflected in popular culture as a value shaping tool for the generations to come. You dont see that at all. You also would not have this website to debate with. Nor would you have secular bookstores, music, and in general, just about every media outlet and retailer you see at the mall. There would be no alcohol for sale. Divorce would be against the law. And most "sins" you see on a daily basis would be punishable by death. The church would oversee all judgements, therefore eliminating the need for courts of law.

B) I quote you to make a point:

"simply put, this is exactly the streotype that is propegated in mainstream media."

um....ditto.

Peace to you brutha. Steven

[The_Dark]

Qur’an is actually translated to "Word of Allah"

Islam is translated to either Submission or Submission to Allah

The First Crusade (1088-1099) was launched in response to Turkish Muslims cutting off Christians from "The Holy Land" that they had traditionally been allowed to access, Jerusalim and Israel at large, since the time of Constantine(312 or there abouts). The part that is rarely talked about in classes is that the Muslims were pushing into Europe and taking over land.

[Shade Everdark]

Islam I thought translated to: Peace, like Salam?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know where they got it, but Wikipedia translates Islam as, "peaceful submission (to the will of god)."