Do You Believe In God?

[freydis]

I'm Asatru.

My gods dont hand you things.

They encourage you to help yourself.

[torn asunder]

aparently my inability to be offended makes me insensitive to the ways i might offend. i'll remove the picture, and censor myself, to make the world a better place...

and steven, since you quoted the picture, would you mind removing it, so it doesn't further offend anyone? thanks.

[saechalyn]

works exactly the other way around too babe - which is why I never lay that trip on people.

I may be a christian, but I dont hang in safe little pretty christian clicks, I'm out there in the trenches with everybody else, and I DO hear the same type of animosity that you do, and I understand it.

and you are not worthless to me. not by a long shot.

yay! You are not worthless to me either (awww, we just had a moment!)

[the eternal]

yeah dude, maybe your right.

maybe you calling me condescending is a little bit comical given your own unique style

I'm glad you caught the hypocrisy

though I sometimes wonder if you realize you too come off that way

I know I often do. But I'm right, so it's okay

maybe Bean could have given me the benefit of the doubt, or better yet asked me to explain

maybe I swim in an ocean of DGN condescending attitudes quite a bit myself

maybe she (Bean) should respond as opposed to you doing it for her even if I admire what your doing

(oh when she gets home, I'm sure she will )

HEY, I've been off DGN and then my email alerted me to some super-weird PM from a "new member" who just happens to sound like a very old member, and tells me to avoid the founders of this board, so I NEEDED to blow off some steam. And you recieved it. You're welcome.

maybe she chose to be condescended to and offended (is that proper language use?) but I am not her tormentor and never have been

I think she catches subtlety better than most, and I think sometimes saying a little really speaks volumes. In its own way, that's a compliment to you.

maybe I never got to finish my friggen point before I got blasted

maybe I tire a wee bit of being the DGN Christian whipping boy for doing what you all very clearly do as well and yes that means you too

BULLSH*&! (I say that smiling )

If you didn't love it, you wouldn't still be here. Do you have any idea how many people have come and gone since you joined?

You secretly relish being the Christian agitator, maybe even converting a lost soul or two while you're at it,

even if you publicly deny it.

This is by and large a pagan/atheist/agnostic board and you not only choose to stay, you jump into the religious discussions with two feet on the ground, and are the most active parcticipator.

maybe sometimes I call you on it

maybe Im not kind and gentle at all and you read me wrong

That could be, but I still have faith in you anyway .

maybe you have no idea how often I have clashed with my evangelical bretheren for NOT fitting that mold which you so despise

Oh I'd imagine. You remind me of Jim Bakker's kid.

He loves Jesus, but he's cool.

He's not yo' Gramma's pastor

Yet it still goes back to a philosophy many do not agree with here

maybe I could likewise despise your own click but I dont and never have

maybe you just see "Christian Boy", and not me and maybe thats a little akin to being...oh, aloof

There are many aloof ones here.

I (nor TA, nor Bean, nor Saechalyn) definitely do not fit that category.

I see you...

AND

"Christian Boy"

There are many facets to us all.

and maybe I'm simply not the do as your told type - especially when it comes to matters of faith and Ive paid my prices for it yet you'd like to lump me where I don't really belong

No but it's clear where you stand, and sometimes it's even more evident in your shorter posts than your longer ones. I think I'm lumping you properly. I'd elaborate, but then I'd just bore everyone.

Trust me, I like you and I wouldnt engage you, if you were Jerry Falwell--May he Rest In Hell.

As it is I'm getting involved in these conversations less and less. Lately, I've been much more interested watching, in non-partisan fashion no less, the soap opera that is Election 2008

(I swear to g-d. If they f*&^ing keep smearing McCain in SC they way the did him in 2000, I'm gonna have to switch parties, and I don't feel like doin that)

Don't forget, from that other thread, I mowed your lawn and shoveled your driveway.

Beat some meat and put it in a slow cooker, and we'll call it even, k?

[bean]

my statement that pissed you off was simply a question, for a reason.

it was not presented - or meant to be taken - offensively.

its a good question. I had a reason, you did not bother to ask me. I dont know why, we've enjoyed each others company before. I speak english, you speak english, all the potential was therefore right there.

Bean, I have been both an unbeleiver and a beleiver.

and atheist and a creationist

religeously head fucked and then spiritually liberated.

how much of that experience must I pre qualify with any of you?

Bean, is it ok with you that my life path has led where it has?

Torn? May I have permission to beleive as I do since you've in the past said that your God but I know you have never walked alongside me?

you all have your opinions - and in this place your like a little angry gang who cannot be moved and every one of you wants to be heard.

Im not trying to move you.

but in return - your not going to move me.

Now Bean, you exemplified your points with pink fairies and sparkly asses....eventually the God trip or beleif equates to things of that nature does it not? Somebody else in here likes to use giant turnips, somebdoy else likes to use spahghetti noodle monsters, over time Ive heard it all, and when it comes to God those sorts of statements always seem to come out and hey - no offense Steven right? Unless of course if I respond, and then who the fuck do I think I am besides some sort of asshole?

im supposing...supposing....that they (those types of examples) summerize the worthlessness of beleiving in a diety?

because to me they come off as intentionally sarcastic when you illustrate with that style. And I get it, because Im sarcastic and working on it, but most of these sorts of posts really do have an "you must be stupid" air to them and I imagine thats how their intended because they sound like yrou all throwing up in your mouths a little.

I never threw sparkly fairies and ass bound glitter at you Bean.

I simply asked - do you beleive in YOU?

Now yes - I DO equate beleiving in self with also beleiving in God and have gone into that in other threads on this board. and I have NEVER ONCE said that you MUST beleive in God to beleive in yourself. But because I beleive a pursuit of an intimate relationship with God reveals your inner nature in terms of both negative and positive traits, I get the hammer or I get acccused of saying stuff Ive never said. But that inner reflection I describe - I beleive that it allows you to take stock effectively and focus on what your gifts are, as well as allowing you to set personal goals to either overcome, address, or compensate for what you know your bad programming or weaknesses are. YES its my work that gets done, but in my case (and in the case fo countless others who beleive as I do) I beleive that God helped me do it - just like your efforts at educating yourself allowed you to lose weight, pursue career goals, etc. You know when somebody goes to a couselor or therapist and thigns come to light and that person uses that information to overcome, everybody cheers.

But if I say God showed me soemthing about myself, everybody jeers and somebody else says hey fuck you. And to those of you who get pissed - even though I have NEVER ONCE said that God told me soemthing about any of you or your personal lives, you tend to speak for me. You tend to tell me what Im saying or doing.

Just because WHAT I study as a resource tool, and WHAT I accept as valuable and measurable truth differs from your own, does not make it bullshit. It makes it different, yes, bullshit, no. You may want to consider that I too Bean - have had some tremndous life changes in my 41 years, I am no stranger to change, challenge, peril, or re-direction. I have not in ANY WAY attempted to disregard you or your experiences or your victories...why would I do that? What argument would I win with that approach? And so for you to come out swinging at me and telling me that I just shit all over others beleifs or religion without so much as asking me to explain in greater detail aboiut one simple question - just one question - did none of us any good. But it sure made me look like a dickhead because Bean said so, even though we both know that Im not.

and somebody (and many more probably) cheered you on while you did it.

should I be insulted? (fair question)

So I have no right to be offended, but you can be offended all you want?

I just get really sick and tired of people questioning what I believe and trying to change my mind about it. That is what I find insulting.

The fact that your response was peppered with things screaming at how wrong I am is still shitting all over my beliefs and I still think it's bullshit.

To me, your response said that I am not a whole person or capable of fully knowing myself because I don't believe in god.

I'm not buying that one, sorry.

I didn't not mean for my fairy/sparkles comment to be offensive. All I meant was that I tolerate other people's beliefs, no matter how far from my own they may be. I didn't want to use a specific religion as an example because I was trying to refrain from pissing anyone off. Looks like I fucked that one up. I WAS NOT trying to be sarcastic or calling you stupid for believing in god. I'm really sorry you took what I said completely wrong.

I know that you've been through a lot. You've posted about it. I never tried to take away from that.

I've been through a lot too. We just ended up taking different paths.

I was never trying to change your mind about your belief. You believe in god. I'm happy for you. That's what works for you. All I was trying to say is stop trying to change everyone else's mind. I will never believe in god, ok?

The people in my life that believe in god do not act the way you. They do not try to covertly cram their religion down my throat.

And yes, you do that. Not openly, but you do it.

As a person, I like you, but your approach towards religion is what makes me lose respect for Christians.

Your original post insulted me, but it did not piss me off.

Your response pissed me off more than you can imagine.

And that is why I will be staying out of these topics from now on.

I'm done.

[the eternal]

See Steven, I told you she would respond.

When given the chance she's even tougher than I am.

She just doesn't always show it.

Now, what she didn't say was,

if you'd like to help me convert her to Led Zepelin worship through classes and listening sessions,

culminating in the zillion dollar concert tix with the Cult in Auburn Hills,

she MAY be more open to THAT.

Of course, then I may have to convert you to Cure/Joy Division worship, but there's plenty of time for that later.

[bean]

yeah dude, maybe your right.

and maybe this was one hella long ass post.

maybe you calling me condescending is a little bit comical given your own unique style

maybe Bean could have given me the benefit of the doubt, or better yet asked me to explain

maybe I swim in an ocean of DGN condescending attitudes quite a bit myself

maybe she (Bean) should respond as opposed to you doing it for her even if I admire what your doing

maybe she chose to be condescended to and offended (is that proper language use?) but I am not her tormentor and never have been

maybe I never got to finish my friggen point before I got blasted

maybe I tire a wee bit of being the DGN Christian whipping boy for doing what you all very clearly do as well and yes that means you too

maybe sometimes I call you on it

maybe Im not kind and gentle at all and you read me wrong

maybe you have no idea how often I have clashed with my evangelical bretheren for NOT fitting that mold which you so despise

maybe I could likewise despise your own click but I dont and never have

maybe you just see "Christian Boy", and not me and maybe thats a little akin to being...oh, aloof

and maybe Im simply not the do as your told type - especially when it comes to matters of faith and Ive paid my prices for it yet you'd like to lump me where I dont really belong

um..yeah. I was at work all day today..doing work. Thanks.

Now I have to go to school.

I can't wait to see the clusterfuck I'm going to come home to. [sarcasm]

[jadnifer]

I understand where you are coming from TA. I really do. I am VERY accepting of other people's religions.

You could think that dogs were something to worship and that would be cool with me. I would be extremely interested in why you worshiped dogs but I wouldnt condemn you for it.

I thank you for saying that you meant no harm in posting that picture. Humor can be good in some instances.

Again, before I make the rest of this post, I am not upset with you TA.

I as others on this thread found the picture that you posted offensive. I understand that that is your viewpoint on it and you used humor to express yourself. However, that is MY God and a lot of other people's God that you are portraying in this fashion.

This is just a general question and it is not directed at any specific person: How would you like it for someone like me (believes in God and Jesus to be my savior) to post something such as that portraying your "God" in that fashion?

Just a little something to think about.

Thanks for listening.

[Steven]

aparently my inability to be offended makes me insensitive to the ways i might offend. i'll remove the picture, and censor myself, to make the world a better place...

and steven, since you quoted the picture, would you mind removing it, so it doesn't further offend anyone? thanks.

no I wont.

If you feel you did something wrong or possibly erred in judgement, then own it.

if you don't, don't.

Im allready done with it.

[Hellion]

I wish I could invite one of my favorite comedians to this thread,LOL!

[torn asunder]

no I wont.

If you feel you did something wrong or possibly erred in judgement, then own it.

if you don't, don't.

Im allready done with it.

ya know what? every time i ask that, this is the response i get... people with this attitude really irritate me, because even though i don't honestly believe i "did wrong" or "erred", i'm trying to keep an open mind, and make an honest effort to gather other viewpoints, so that i might see things from a perspective i may otherwise overlook in the future.

"no i won't" to me, is a cop-out. you're saying that you'd rather just condemn someone for their behavior, rather than proferring your point of view with the intent of possibly educating them, and helping the better get along in and with society!? that's really sad, and an attitude i'm surprised to see from someone who claims to follow the teachings of god and jesus.

[Steven]

okkkkkkkkkkkkk. you may not dig me right now Bean, but I like you, and so I'm gogin to answer every single one fo these statements and then offer you to PM me if you'd like to continue. Fair?

So I have no right to be offended, but you can be offended all you want?

Please be hereby notified that you do indeed have the right to feel however you want and to be offended. Please grant my request to quote, cut, and paste, my statement saying that you do not.

I just get really sick and tired of people questioning what I believe and trying to change my mind about it. That is what I find insulting.

Please paste quote of me trying to change your mind about what you beleive. Please define "Questioning what I beleive" and then let me know if what I in turn go thru on this board might also fall into that category.

The fact that your response was peppered with things screaming at how wrong I am is still shitting all over my beliefs and I still think it's bullshit.

Please insert my screams here:( ) and then tell me which one of us gets to be wrong but not shitted all over. And then please redirect yrou attention back to YOUR lead in question of me in this paragraph about rights to be insulted and again explain my exclusion.

To me, your response said that I am not a whole person or capable of fully knowing myself because I don't believe in god.

Bean, seriously, your being silly here. Take a wander down DGN memory lane. When have I ever, ever, ever, ever (ever) "hinted" at anything, insinuated anything, or even suggested anythign from a safe vantage point? Never, because I dont speak that language. If I have somehting on my mind i will say it right to you, all of it, directly. Therefore, if I meant what you just said I meant, I would have spoken the follwoing words to you publically: 'Bean - you are not a whole person or capable of fully knowing yourself because you don't believe in god." I did not say that, because I do not feel that way. I said, what I feel, about my life, my faith, my experience, my beleif regarding God, in a response to YOUR challange of me. So whoever in your life has said that to you - it sure as fuck aint me. You are blasting me with an offense I am not guilty of. You have decided, for me, whats on my mind. And you have been wrong in this case.

I'm not buying that one, sorry.

I'm not receiving your charge Bean - and Im not sorry - because its not true. You can feel somethign very strongly Bean, and very strongly be wrong. Your dead wrong here.

I didn't not mean for my fairy/sparkles comment to be offensive. All I meant was that I tolerate other people's beliefs, no matter how far from my own they may be. I didn't want to use a specific religion as an example because I was trying to refrain from pissing anyone off. Looks like I fucked that one up. I WAS NOT trying to be sarcastic or calling you stupid for believing in god. I'm really sorry you took what I said completely wrong.

I accept what you are telling me here and I thank you for it and Im not mad about it. I also dont hink your out to get me Bean but I am confused about the rancor and I feel as if I am guilty by association because you've been hurt in the name of God.

I know that you've been through a lot. You've posted about it. I never tried to take away from that.

I apprecaite this recognition, I belevie tha tyou are sincere, and I appreciate it. I also VERY much applaud your own hard work in your own life an din no way shape or form mean to belittle it and if I have I am sorry because I sure did not mean to.

I've been through a lot too. We just ended up taking different paths.

Agreed. Most of my friends who are survivors have chosen a different poath than mine, it does not divide us.

I was never trying to change your mind about your belief. You believe in god. I'm happy for you. That's what works for you. All I was trying to say is stop trying to change everyone else's mind. I will never believe in god, ok?

ok. now hear one thing if you can. everybody in DGN, posts their opinions. somebody asks "What do you think?" and I tell you what I think. My agenda is no different than anybody elses on this board and never has been. I am a hard ass, and I'm cocky. but I could never take on all of DGN (everybody reference) and change their beleifs. Nor do I want the job. Nor do I beleive that its even my job to do. never did. So when I post and you read it - take two steps back for a second and remember that Im not after you or anybody else.

The people in my life that believe in god do not act the way you. They do not try to covertly cram their religion down my throat.

Bean - were getting redundent. And I am not guilty of any part of this sentence and you teeter on owing me an apology here.

And yes, you do that. Not openly, but you do it.

And no - I do not do anythign under the radar Bean - and if you think this about me then youve never gotten me - ever. I do so much shit openly in here that it gets me in trouble every six months with the DGN powers that be. And anybody in here that knows me in person, also knows this about me./i]

As a person, I like you, but your approach towards religion is what makes me lose respect for Christians.

As a person, I like you - but your approach toward me right now makes me wonder when you've ever listend to me truly.

Your original post insulted me, but it did not piss me off.

beleive it or not - my response was not full force - it was an insult response, just like yours. And these allegations of yrou s against me insult me right now, but I'll get over it.

Your response pissed me off more than you can imagine.

I will live with that. But I had to adddress it - to stay silent in an accusation against you that you do not beleive is accurate is to almost admit guilt, and I suppose you feel exactly the same way.

And that is why I will be staying out of these topics from now on.

your choice. Im not asking you to do that. in fact all Im asking you to do - is think a bit on what Ive just said, and if it resluts in a hey fuck you Steven, well I guess I've doen the best I can no?

I'm done.

bye bye.

[Steven]

ya know what? every time i ask that, this is the response i get... people with this attitude really irritate me, because even though i don't honestly believe i "did wrong" or "erred", i'm trying to keep an open mind, and make an honest effort to gather other viewpoints, so that i might see things from a perspective i may otherwise overlook in the future.

"no i won't" to me, is a cop-out. you're saying that you'd rather just condemn someone for their behavior, rather than proferring your point of view with the intent of possibly educating them, and helping the better get along in and with society!? that's really sad, and an attitude i'm surprised to see from someone who claims to follow the teachings of god and jesus.

Mike - your opening liner of "since Im incapable of being offended" (wait a minute - didint you just say your irritated???) is a bit patronizing. Thats an open mind? Sorry, you didint have me at hello. So....do what you have to do. When posts come from you - they fall under the headship of education. When they come from me - they fall into the extremism category. You dont really play fair Mikey - your above correction.

[torn asunder]

I understand where you are coming from TA. I really do. I am VERY accepting of other people's religions.

You could think that dogs were something to worship and that would be cool with me. I would be extremely interested in why you worshiped dogs but I wouldnt condemn you for it.

I thank you for saying that you meant no harm in posting that picture. Humor can be good in some instances.

Again, before I make the rest of this post, I am not upset with you TA.

I as others on this thread found the picture that you posted offensive. I understand that that is your viewpoint on it and you used humor to express yourself. However, that is MY God and a lot of other people's God that you are portraying in this fashion.

This is just a general question and it is not directed at any specific person: How would you like it for someone like me (believes in God and Jesus to be my savior) to post something such as that portraying your "God" in that fashion?

Just a little something to think about.

Thanks for listening.

i do see your point, but now that i'm home from work and have a chance to sit with my thoughts, i really don't see what i did wrong in this instance. i made a point of/went out of my way to express that i wasn't trying to offend anyone, and then i expressed my views. it wasn't done in a childish, or vengeful, or accusatory manner, and it wasn't done with the intent to inflict mental/emotional harm in any way. there was no anger, animosity, hatred, ridiculecondemnation in it - it was my thoughts and opinions on the subject.

imagine if this board was run with the intent of never allowing anything that might possibly, in some conceivable way, offend even one person. we'd probably have to ban everyone for saying something "possibly inflammatory" - we might as well shut the board down! self expression is one of the things that draws us together, as a community (not just dgn, but the scene as a whole) and i don't feel that expressing oneslf should be repressed, as long as it's obviously done with no ill will.

as for sass's comment that i'm "mocking" her religion? c'mon! mocking would be if i'd said something like "HA! you believe this shit!! what a sucker! what's wrong with you?" etc... i didn't do it, i didn't intend it, and i would never do so. it's true that you can't please everyone, and that any time you open your mouth, you run the risk of "offending", but in a community where we try to encourage the expression of various and sundry viewpoints, things must be taken in context.

in this case, i'll post selected quotes from the rules that apply...

DGN Mission Statement, FAQ and Rules 3.1

"Everything you ever wanted to know about DGN"

The DGN Code Of Conduct

Rule No. 1.

Play Nice. Unlike a lot of boards, we like to try and keep ours jerk-free.

You should feel comfortable to express your opinions freely, even if they might be unpopular opinions - we're not going for a homogenized, dull community here. But when voicing an opinion, always do so with tact and avoid inciting others.

Examples of what we don't want to see:

A. Blatant Personal Attacks

Name calling, threatening or other attacks directly on another poster or non-poster. "Direct Insults" If someone calls another poster an "asshole" or some such, and its not clear they were teasing, that's a fairly clear, obvious break of the DGN rules and they need to be talked to and/or dealt with in one way or another.

...

E. No Inflammatory remarks/comments about "The Rules", or Moderators actions on the board or "baiting" remarks/questions of such nature.

DGN is not a soap box to vent your personal grievances about DGNs members, about DGN's hardworking staff or DGN's longstanding code of conduct. Don't post it on the board.

F. Blatantly Inciting Anger

It's fine to discuss things openly and frankly, and healthy debate is great. But don't incite anger in others purposely.

...

DGN is a special and friendly place on the net and we want to keep it this way.

Often it can be a difficult task to keep things respectful and easygoing in real life - this is especially the case on the Internet. Very often it requires difficult decisions be made as far as what to post and what not to post, and/or deciding when someone has broken the play nice rule or not. We are all human and sometimes say things we don’t mean or should keep private. DGN should be a place that people feel comfortable posting. DGN strives to keep things as welcoming and friendly as possible without discouraging passionate communication.

...

Rule A: in this case, there was no blatant personal attack of any kind. rule A doesn't apply...

Rule E: in this case, rule E could apply to steven's comment that "TA has a free pass..." etc. could be construed as "Inflammatory remarks/comments about "The Rules", or Moderators actions on the board or "baiting" remarks/questions of such nature". knowing steven as i do from the board, i choose to ignore it, because it was a harmless comment...

Rule F: makes a fine point on its own, so i'll just quote it again... It's fine to discuss things openly and frankly, and healthy debate is great. But don't incite anger in others purposely. as there was no intent to incite anger, it doesn't fall under this rule either.

i don't normally go into this much detail, but at this time i think it's appropriate. some of the other mods might not, and if that's the case, they will do with this thread as they see fit.

[predaking]

to Steven,

I like your style as well, its not the comments posted its the heart that is put into them that I like. Bean's post as well as yours and TA's were full of it and I admire that sort of thing, I am sure my views are way different then yours but I give you mad respect for your stance as well as Bean and TA. If I may ask, being a Christian what are you views on other religions? (so as not to be misunderstood, this is no attack on you just a question from one who enjoys a good talk on religion every once and awhile)

[torn asunder]

steven, see your pm's...

and now, back to our regularly scheduled topic!!

[pharoh]

As soon as I saw this thread I said to myself oh shit here we go. I knew that this was going to get ugly. It's like this: You have a very select few here (no I am not naming people, this is not directed towards specific people) who are very anti religion and anyone who goes against the grain they go on the offensive. Nobody is going to debunk anyones belief system, nor do I think anyone is really trying. I think we are all a bunch of smart asses and People feel they have to justify themselves if they feel they are being called out.

I am a Christian. I try to follow the teachings of Christ. I was baptised december 5, my birthday at 730pm 2007. For the sake of an argument lets say that all religion is wrong, we all go in the ground and thats it, no more and no less. Since I followed what I considered to be a good and moral life did I really lose out? If people can look at the life I lead and the advice I gave them when they sought me out and they can smile knowing that I was apart of thier life did I lose out?

Seriously, nobody is ever going to come to a complete agreement here. I think that dgn should just do away with religious talk all together lol.

[Steven]

steven, see your pm's...

and now, back to our regularly scheduled topic!!

PM back atcha.

Im going to go eat a cookie now.

[Steven]

to Steven,

I like your style as well, its not the comments posted its the heart that is put into them that I like. Bean's post as well as yours and TA's were full of it and I admire that sort of thing, I am sure my views are way different then yours but I give you mad respect for your stance as well as Bean and TA. If I may ask, being a Christian what are you views on other religions? (so as not to be misunderstood, this is no attack on you just a question from one who enjoys a good talk on religion every once and awhile)

Predaking - can I ask you one favor?

because this thread got heated, and because there are accusations flying, and because I personally have been involved in the past in a few glorius trainwrecks that I co participated in - can you give me a day or two to answer that question? If I do it now - I dont know that high emotions will not follow, and this thread will get shut down.

give me a day or two - hit me up again (even PM if you want) and Ill start a new thread to cover it. fair enough?

that way everybody cools off, and we can get back to the subject at hand.

[predaking]

Predaking - can I ask you one favor?

because this thread got heated, and because there are accusations flying, and because I personally have been involved in the past in a few glorius trainwrecks that I co participated in - can you give me a day or two to answer that question? If I do it now - I dont know that high emotions will not follow, and this thread will get shut down.

give me a day or two - hit me up again (even PM if you want) and Ill start a new thread to cover it. fair enough?

that way everybody cools off, and we can get back to the subject at hand.

Thats cool, I'll PM you then and thankyou.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Starting out for the first 15-20 years of life being a fairly fundamentalist Christan, then being in the i guess "agnostic" category for the next 10 years. Now recently after a ton of study, probably as close to atheist as you can get without QUITE being able to say "OK for sure. I don't believe anymore" I ended up picking "I'm not sure, but think about it often."

I'm definitely still "open" to additional info. Which i think is probably the best course of action even with a mountain of evidence in any direction. There could always be new information that causes a paradigm shift one way or another.

I WANT to believe in a god(s)/Deity of some sort, I'm just becoming more and more convinced of the lack of one as i try to study it from a rationalist/naturalistic (which i "have faith" (ut oh) is the correct path) search for truth. That's not to say i don't find some "truths" or "good counsel" in the religions of the world. I'm intentionally trying to stay focused on, specifically the "deity/creator or no?" question here.

If something happened tomorrow or i read something or had some discussion that made me "see the light" again, I'd be all for it. I want the truth, i don't necessarily care one way or the other in terms of my ego or "preference" , i just want the "real" truth, whatever it is. Unfortunately it might be unattainable, despite that i think the search for it is probably the most important human endeavor.

Even though some people tend to be nearly incapable of discussing such subjects without throwing a fit, i do prefer this sort of "substantive" discussion over the mindlessness of one-liners and other randomness that makes up the majority of online discussion. The "god or no?" or "Where did it all come from?" question is defiantly one of my preferred subjects.

I need an option halfway between:

I used to, but I don't anymore.

I'm not sure, but I think about it often.

[sass_in_the_pants]

Starting out for the first 15-20 years of life being a fairly fundamentalist Christan, then being in the i guess "agnostic" category for the next 10 years. Now recently after a ton of study, probably as close to atheist as you can get without QUITE being able to say "OK for sure. I don't believe anymore" I ended up picking "I'm not sure, but think about it often."

I'm definitely still "open" to additional info. Which i think is probably the best course of action even with a mountain of evidence in any direction. There could always be new information that causes a paradigm shift one way or another.

I WANT to believe in a god(s)/Deity of some sort, I'm just becoming more and more convinced of the lack of one as i try to study it from a rationalist/naturalistic (which i "have faith" (ut oh) is the correct path) search for truth. That's not to say i don't find some "truths" or "good counsel" in the religions of the world. I'm intentionally trying to stay focused on, specifically the "deity/creator or no?" question here.

If something happened tomorrow or i read something or had some discussion that made me "see the light" again, I'd be all for it. I want the truth, i don't necessarily care one way or the other in terms of my ego or "preference" , i just want the "real" truth, whatever it is. Unfortunately it might be unattainable, despite that i think the search for it is probably the most important human endeavor.

Even though some people tend to be nearly incapable of discussing such subjects without throwing a fit, i do prefer this sort of "substantive" discussion over the mindlessness of one-liners and other randomness that makes up the majority of online discussion. The "god or no?" or "Where did it all come from?" question is defiantly one of my preferred subjects.

I need an option halfway between:

I used to, but I don't anymore.

I'm not sure, but I think about it often.

I think your post is really interesting.

I think it's interesting that you say you WANT to believe in a diety. Where does that come from? Is it a holdover from your younger days or is it something else?

And you also say that a rational approach is the right one, and again, you seem to have some sort of sense about this...where does that come from? There are all sorts of different approaches to finding 'truth', so why do you have faith that the naturalistic approach is the right one?

I know you've read extensively on this topic, so I'm really interested in what you have say on this.

[Steven]

A quick addition to those questions out of my own curiosity....

in terms of your fairly fundamental upbringing.....did your beleif in God change between your JW experiences with God versus your fundamental Christian experiences with God? Im asking if they were two differetn sorts of Gods or understandings, because in my case they were. As a JW God was "Jehovah of Armies" as a christian he was somehting else entirely

[saechalyn]

I need an option halfway between:

I used to, but I don't anymore.

I'm not sure, but I think about it often.

Yeah I think I do too, and I wrote the damn options!

I relate to a lot of what Troy said. I didn't want to lose my faith. It just sort of fell out from under me, for lack of a better term.

[Steven]

yay! You are not worthless to me either (awww, we just had a moment!)

hey...I just now found this, somehow I had passed over it, and thank you.