Do You Believe In God?

[Destroit]

*stumbles aimlessly into post*

...HOLY shit (no pun intended with the "HOLY")

What'd I effin miss now?

After reading all of this, I have words to say...but will spare you all for another hour and a half when I am able to write it.

I promise to use complete sentences and words from the English language, not Chernojarble (yes...I do infact have a language because even English does not have enough words to convey how I feel ), and I will, per request of Troy , make breaks for paragraphs so you're not looking at a massive wall of text.

[Steven]

*stumbles aimlessly into post*

...HOLY shit (no pun intended with the "HOLY")

What'd I effin miss now?

After reading all of this, I have words to say...but will spare you all for another hour and a half when I am able to write it.

I promise to use complete sentences and words from the English language, not Chernojarble (yes...I do infact have a language because even English does not have enough words to convey how I feel ), and I will, per request of Troy , make breaks for paragraphs so you're not looking at a massive wall of text.

just a preface to your soon to be coming holy shit what did I walk into post...everything is cool between (most of) us now Chernobyl....we've all talked and cyberhugged.

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

Like Shade I was raised Lutheran. Rather, forced Lutheran. And because of that, it has dramatically effected my outlook on it.

You do NOT tell an eight year old that if you don't say your nightly prayers and bow to God on a daily basis that you'll be sent to hell, burning eternally while flesh melts off your body, maggots feast on your eyes, demons poke you with pitchforks all while screaming in agony to no avail. You...you just DON'T.

I still have nightmares. And that fear has been programmed into the back of my mind. I want to find my own way, find the religion right for my beliefs and opinions, but I still think about after life and the repercussions my decision to not follow Gods way will be like. It truly haunts me.

Because of that, I see the Christian religion as programming. Using fear to control their followers.

DO NOT get me wrong, I am NOT saying that is the basis of the Christian religion. It's just...that's the only examples of the religion I have ever been subjected to. I am NOT saying it IS 'programming', please don't get me wrong. I understand it's a matter of who it's taught to you by and how. Christianity is NOT wrong, it's NOT bad, it's NOT evil etc etc. It is a belief system, if YOU believe it, if YOU feel it's right for you, then it's right for you.

If you were raised to believe Santa Clause was evil and will kill you, you would fear him, am I right? But Some kids are raised to believe in him and some are told he is just a seasonal figure. Depending on how you were raised and what you're told is what you'll believe until you find out your own truth.

The ONLY time I feel a religion is 'wrong' is if you believe in that religion for the wrong reason. I.E. me being Christian for fear of going to hell is WRONG. In that scenario, the religion is wrong for ME, NOT the religion itself is wrong.

Who knows, maybe I'll realize something about Christianity that fits into who I am and I want to follow it for another reason other than to avoid hell, THEN and only then it will be the right religion. But right for ME.

[Steven]

Like Shade I was raised Lutheran. Rather, forced Lutheran. And because of that, it has dramatically effected my outlook on it.

You do NOT tell an eight year old that if you don't say your nightly prayers and bow to God on a daily basis that you'll be sent to hell, burning eternally while flesh melts off your body, maggots feast on your eyes, demons poke you with pitchforks all while screaming in agony to no avail. You...you just DON'T.

I still have nightmares. And that fear has been programmed into the back of my mind. I want to find my own way, find the religion right for my beliefs and opinions, but I still think about after life and the repercussions my decision to not follow Gods way will be like. It truly haunts me.

Because of that, I see the Christian religion as programming. Using fear to control their followers.

DO NOT get me wrong, I am NOT saying that is the basis of the Christian religion. It's just...that's the only examples of the religion I have ever been subjected to. I am NOT saying it IS 'programming', please don't get me wrong. I understand it's a matter of who it's taught to you by and how. Christianity is NOT wrong, it's NOT bad, it's NOT evil etc etc. It is a belief system, if YOU believe it, if YOU feel it's right for you, then it's right for you.

If you were raised to believe Santa Clause was evil and will kill you, you would fear him, am I right? But Some kids are raised to believe in him and some are told he is just a seasonal figure. Depending on how you were raised and what you're told is what you'll believe until you find out your own truth.

The ONLY time I feel a religion is 'wrong' is if you believe in that religion for the wrong reason. I.E. me being Christian for fear of going to hell is WRONG. In that scenario, the religion is wrong for ME, NOT the religion itself is wrong.

Who knows, maybe I'll realize something about Christianity that fits into who I am and I want to follow it for another reason other than to avoid hell, THEN and only then it will be the right religion. But right for ME.

everythign you siad makes total sense.

I was raised Jehovah's Witness - was excluded from regular kids - and taught about armegeddon daily and even in the mid 70's waited for it to come like everybody else in the JW's (although they wont admit it). I was scared shitless.

I was however - taught that hellfire was a fallacy and was symbolic of final and complete death - not torment. then they replaced it with armegeddon instead and that I had no choice - I would have to endure through it. At least with Hell your sorta 50 50 right?

It got in my head and made me avoid any form of religiosity and made me almost violently opposed to any form of organized religion for many years. I get it. I do.

anyway my faith and lifestyle today has absolutely nothgin to do with fear of retribution of any sort. Thats not faith, thats not following with a full heart - thats just self preservation and its false. I agree with you, all of you for that matter.

I hope your outlook changes one day - if anything for your own peice of mind, thats too big of a burdon to carry around.

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

everythign you siad makes total sense.

I was raised Jehovah's Witness - was excluded from regular kids - and taught about armegeddon daily and even in the mid 70's waited for it to come like everybody else in the JW's (although they wont admit it). I was scared shitless.

I was however - taught that hellfire was a fallacy and was symbolic of final and complete death - not torment. then they replaced it with armegeddon instead and that I had no choice - I would have to endure through it. At least with Hell your sorta 50 50 right?

It got in my head and made me avoid any form of religiosity and made me almost violenty opposed to any form of organized religion for many years. I get it. I do.

anyway my faith and lifestyle today has absolutely nothgin to do with dear of retribution of any sort. Thats not faith, thats not following with a full heart - thats just self preservation and its false. I agree with you, all of you for that matter.

I hope your outlook changes one day - if anything for your own peice of mind, thats too big of a burdon to carry around.

Thank you.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

A quick addition to those questions out of my own curiosity....

in terms of your fairly fundamental upbringing.....did your beleif in God change between your JW experiences with God versus your fundamental Christian experiences with God? Im asking if they were two differetn sorts of Gods or understandings, because in my case they were. As a JW God was "Jehovah of Armies" as a christian he was somehting else entirely

I know its odd from the "inside" of the JW community to use the term "Fundemntalist" but my defention of fundementalism and when i use it is a general term that means something like: "the infallibility of the Bible, , the virgin birth of Christ, Christ dying for our sins, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the incoming return of Jesus Christ and Armageddon." Which JW falls under. As opposed to say the more "modernist" or "new age" or "intuitive" Christianity which basically is a were you pick and choose things from the bible as truth and others as fiction etc. and only apply it when we we feel comfortable with it / feel are true in your heart regardless if its actually written in the bible or not.

Its not meant (in my use of the term) as a negative term. I'd say "extremist Christian" or some such if i was intending it as a sort of negative "fire breathing mean" type Christianity.

I that case there i meant "i was raised Christian and believed it fully through early adulthood". Might have been a better way to say it to avoid confusion.

[Steven]

I know its odd from the "inside" of the JW community to use the term "Fundemntalist" but my defention of fundementalism and when i use it is a general term that means something like: "the infallibility of the Bible, , the virgin birth of Christ, Christ dying for our sins, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the incoming return of Jesus Christ and Armageddon." Which JW falls under. As opposed to say the more "modernist" or "new age" or "intuitive" Christianity which basically is a were you pick and choose things from the bible as truth and others as fiction etc. and only apply it when we we feel comfortable with it / feel are true in your heart regardless if its actually written in the bible or not.

Its not meant (in my use of the term) as a negative term. I'd say "extremist Christian" or some such if i was intending it as a sort of negative "fire breathing mean" type Christianity.

I that case there i meant "i was raised Christian and believed it fully through early adulthood". Might have been a better way to say it to avoid confusion.

OK, I see what your saying here. I dont know your history Troy, so i sort of assumed that you moved toward traditional Judeo Christianity for a period of time post JW experience. Although I understand your perspective here I do feel however that the ideals, motivation, culture, and biblical approach (not to mention translational twists) are entirely different after having spent many years inside of both camps but I also recognize that thats just me. I will say however - that the authoratative and ever watchful eye of Elders and Minisiterial Servants inside of the Watchtower, Bible, and Tract society had everythgin to do with my general distrust of Christianity and organized religion and the beleif that one was not to ever research and make up their own minds.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

OK, I see what your saying here. I dont know your history Troy, so i sort of assumed that you moved toward traditional Judeo Christianity for a period of time post JW experience. Although I understand your perspective here I do feel however that the ideals, motivation, culture, and biblical approach (not to mention translational twists) are entirely different after having spent many years inside of both camps but I also recognize that thats just me. I will say however - that the authoratative and ever watchful eye of Elders and Minisiterial Servants inside of the Watchtower, Bible, and Tract society had everythgin to do with my general distrust of Christianity and organized religion and the beleif that one was not to ever research and make up their own minds.

There are so many different sects really its impossible to make too many comparisons but "fundamentalism" is a fairly short list of commonalities, of which most all the main chrsitain sects in their lets call it "pure" form share. Its really a fairly lose term, which means... well basically just what i said above.

I don't think it matters so much what "form" of Christianity i look at, the underlying problem is the same for me "creator or no" not necessarily the details of the religion itself. For me the details are more just interesting subjects and (perhaps) sorces for ethical behavior. The real question is "god or no god?". I still i'm very skeptical, and i think any relgion worthy of the name , says "yes there is a god" (but the details may differ) so currently thats my core problem with any religion or "spirtual beielf system". There are "good things" in most all relgions, but i cant take any of them wholesale since im skeptical of the basic premise.

Shit... off topic again , god damnit. (Is hitting "new topic" all that hard? *shakes fist at self*)

Anyhow is there a god or not? And maybe WHY? Not nessisarly the details of any specific religion is the question here.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I think your post is really interesting.

I think it's interesting that you say you WANT to believe in a diety. Where does that come from? Is it a holdover from your younger days or is it something else?

And you also say that a rational approach is the right one, and again, you seem to have some sort of sense about this...where does that come from? There are all sorts of different approaches to finding 'truth', so why do you have faith that the naturalistic approach is the right one?

I know you've read extensively on this topic, so I'm really interested in what you have say on this.

I do want there to be a creator , because theres just something comforting about the idea that everything has a "point" and/or theres someone looking out for us beyond just what we can see in the material universe.

This could turn into a 500 page book on that one but to oversimplify (extremely oversimplify) i think the "paths" to truth can be stated loosely like this:

1. Intuitive, personal feelings / emotions and perceptions and "common sense" lead us to our belief in what the "truth" is.

2. Rational , experimental "hard data" scientific method interpretations from multiple trusted, well documented sources leads us to what the "truth" is.

3. A mixture of the above.

(please, like i said, oversimplifications to not turn this into a 500 page novel)

When we are talking about something as important as the nature of existence of all matter, energy in the universe i tend to think that number 2 is the only one that should be trusted. In some day to day "real life" situations probably number 3 is just fine, and indeed we all use a mixture of both systems regularly even if we don't realise it.

But, on matters of such utter importance as this question , i think number 2 is the only one to be trusted. If we don't let have enough information , then we need to do more research or await more research and only then form an opinion , rather than using number 1 to "fill in the gaps" were we lack data.

My "feelings" while often helpful , are just as often totally wrong and get me into trouble. I cant trust them to give me the full answer on something so important as this. Even if i saw pink elephants "for sure" with my own eyes , i would not assume they really were there without detailed backup and multiple sources of information because the circumstances would be too extraordinary to just take on "faith" that my perception was correct.

Extordinary ideas demand extraordinary evidence, otherwise we are apt to believe anything that comes along just based on our on perceptions (or mis perceptions) and "feelings".

[jadnifer]

i do see your point, but now that i'm home from work and have a chance to sit with my thoughts, i really don't see what i did wrong in this instance. i made a point of/went out of my way to express that i wasn't trying to offend anyone, and then i expressed my views. it wasn't done in a childish, or vengeful, or accusatory manner, and it wasn't done with the intent to inflict mental/emotional harm in any way. there was no anger, animosity, hatred, ridiculecondemnation in it - it was my thoughts and opinions on the subject.

imagine if this board was run with the intent of never allowing anything that might possibly, in some conceivable way, offend even one person. we'd probably have to ban everyone for saying something "possibly inflammatory" - we might as well shut the board down! self expression is one of the things that draws us together, as a community (not just dgn, but the scene as a whole) and i don't feel that expressing oneslf should be repressed, as long as it's obviously done with no ill will.

as for sass's comment that i'm "mocking" her religion? c'mon! mocking would be if i'd said something like "HA! you believe this shit!! what a sucker! what's wrong with you?" etc... i didn't do it, i didn't intend it, and i would never do so. it's true that you can't please everyone, and that any time you open your mouth, you run the risk of "offending", but in a community where we try to encourage the expression of various and sundry viewpoints, things must be taken in context.

in this case, i'll post selected quotes from the rules that apply...

Rule A: in this case, there was no blatant personal attack of any kind. rule A doesn't apply...

Rule E: in this case, rule E could apply to steven's comment that "TA has a free pass..." etc. could be construed as "Inflammatory remarks/comments about "The Rules", or Moderators actions on the board or "baiting" remarks/questions of such nature". knowing steven as i do from the board, i choose to ignore it, because it was a harmless comment...

Rule F: makes a fine point on its own, so i'll just quote it again... It's fine to discuss things openly and frankly, and healthy debate is great. But don't incite anger in others purposely. as there was no intent to incite anger, it doesn't fall under this rule either.

i don't normally go into this much detail, but at this time i think it's appropriate. some of the other mods might not, and if that's the case, they will do with this thread as they see fit.

In response to this, not unlike what you said, I never intended to offend anyone either. You expressed your opinion in a non-threatening way and I did as well. Neither one of us broke any rules. All I did was respond on how I felt about it. I actually thank you for expressing it in that way. I just ask that you accept the fact that I responded in the manner that it made me feel.

[Steven]

There are so many different sects really its impossible to make too many comparisons but "fundamentalism" is a fairly short list of commonalities, of which most all the main chrsitain sects in their lets call it "pure" form share. Its really a fairly lose term, which means... well basically just what i said above.

I don't think it matters so much what "form" of Christianity i look at, the underlying problem is the same for me "creator or no" not necessarily the details of the religion itself. For me the details are more just interesting subjects and (perhaps) sorces for ethical behavior. The real question is "god or no god?". I still i'm very skeptical, and i think any relgion worthy of the name , says "yes there is a god" (but the details may differ) so currently thats my core problem with any religion or "spirtual beielf system". There are "good things" in most all relgions, but i cant take any of them wholesale since im skeptical of the basic premise.

Shit... off topic again , god damnit. (Is hitting "new topic" all that hard? *shakes fist at self*)

Anyhow is there a god or not? And maybe WHY? Not nessisarly the details of any specific religion is the question here.

understood and appreciated.

I think what makes this particular topic so difficult to stay "just on topic" is because the notion of beleif in God (or nto for that matter) then opens the door to some sense of personal responsibiity. I think thats a natural progression in human behaviour - and thats why I think there needs to be (and has been - not complaining) some leniency regarding topical threadjacking here.....this is just to broad of a subject.

Perosanlly, I have spent time in many of those sects in my own search and although I agree with the basic premise of what yrou suggesting here - I cannot help but be convinced that "how" God is presented to you - leads to why, and what that means to you in terms of your own identity.....which I why I made the effort to ask that question about perspectives based on religeous upbringing. In actuality I have a difficult time (this is just me) understanding how someone can decide there is possibly not a God withothout divorcing themselves from an oppressive religeous background. I suppose Im saying that some degree of logic is there in teh equating - but that there is still very much the underlying hurt that paved the pathway. Still - thats not meant to be a braod sweeping statement, even if that sounds contradictory

[Troy Spiral (13)]

understood and appreciated.

I think what makes this particular topic so difficult to stay "just on topic" is because the notion of beleif in God (or nto for that matter) then opens the door to some sense of personal responsibiity. I think thats a natural progression in human behaviour - and thats why I think there needs to be (and has been - not complaining) some leniency regarding topical threadjacking here.....this is just to broad of a subject.

Perosanlly, I have spent time in many of those sects in my own search and although I agree with the basic premise of what yrou suggesting here - I cannot help but be convinced that "how" God is presented to you - leads to why, and what that means to you in terms of your own identity.....which I why I made the effort to ask that question about perspectives based on religeous upbringing. In actuality I have a difficult time (this is just me) understanding how someone can decide there is possibly not a God withothout divorcing themselves from an oppressive religeous background. I suppose Im saying that some degree of logic is there in teh equating - but that there is still very much the underlying hurt that paved the pathway. Still - thats not meant to be a braod sweeping statement, even if that sounds contradictory

Yeah i understand steven. I think you explained it pretty good there.

I think often people get "turned off" to the idea of a creator due to negative interactions with a particular religion and then just sort of write it all off as being bunk. Which i think is unfair / unwise. If i had an asshole catholic school teacher that beat me raw (just as an example) and my fellow "Christians" when i was growing up were all scum... that doesn't mean there is no god. It just means i had a bad experience with some flawed individuals.

Im own skepticism comes from less personal and more generalized thinking about the subject as a whole. It wasn't always that way though. I do think some initial dissatisfaction with hipocracy of a few people lead me to skeptical thinking a bit faster than i might have otherwise.

Probably sort of a simplified flowchart would be:

-Science Class Circa 6th Grade (no direct effect at this time, but it did set me up for the "scientific method/rationality" being the way to truth)

- Random "worldly" information (that seemed somehow valid , and not necessarily contradictory to Christianity but that there were truths to be found elsewhere other than through Christianity)

- Other religious learning and research beyond my "traditional" christian sources. Some of it contradictory to Christianity (thus making me think maybe Christianity was flawed (but i still never questioned the existence of god really).

- Then interaction with people that just totally didn't believe in god at all (crazy i thought, at the time) various articles/books mentioning this.

- Further reading about Evolution vs Creation. Covering the whole span of my adult life, initially the goal was to have "scientific" arguments in favor of Creation so i could shut up my quasi-atheist friends or at least try to convince them that there really was a god and they were just confused.

Eventually leading me to the idea that the arguments (again i guess i just inherently choose "scientific-ish" over "intuition" type thinking) in favor of a creator less universe were stronger than the ones in favor of it. Or rather, a creator is"unnecessary" to explain the universe, and lacking proof , i remain unconvinced.

Unconvinced / Skeptical though doesn't mean "totally against" the idea of a god(s)/creator , just that ... skeptical/unconvinced.

And as stated before i really would prefer there to be a creator , especially one with a guidebook and sort of "owners manual" for life. Somehow the idea of my existance not contiuing is upsetting and having to roll-our-own ethics seems... difficult, among other things.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I know people don't like to talk about it.. but science came up.. which opened the door to....

The science of Quantum Physics is about a science as you can get... and still... it hints that some intelligence is behind creation...

Nobody really likes to talk about that aspect of it though.

[Steven]

Yeah i understand steven. I think you explained it pretty good there.

I think often people get "turned off" to the idea of a creator due to negative interactions with a particular religion and then just sort of write it all off as being bunk. Which i think is unfair / unwise. If i had an asshole catholic school teacher that beat me raw (just as an example) and my fellow "Christians" when i was growing up were all scum... that doesn't mean there is no god. It just means i had a bad experience with some flawed individuals.

Im own skepticism comes from less personal and more generalized thinking about the subject as a whole. It wasn't always that way though. I do think some initial dissatisfaction with hipocracy of a few people lead me to skeptical thinking a bit faster than i might have otherwise.

Probably sort of a simplified flowchart would be:

-Science Class Circa 6th Grade (no direct effect at this time, but it did set me up for the "scientific method/rationality" being the way to truth)

- Random "worldly" information (that seemed somehow valid , and not necessarily contradictory to Christianity but that there were truths to be found elsewhere other than through Christianity)

- Other religious learning and research beyond my "traditional" christian sources. Some of it contradictory to Christianity (thus making me think maybe Christianity was flawed (but i still never questioned the existence of god really).

- Then interaction with people that just totally didn't believe in god at all (crazy i thought, at the time) various articles/books mentioning this.

- Further reading about Evolution vs Creation. Covering the whole span of my adult life, initially the goal was to have "scientific" arguments in favor of Creation so i could shut up my quasi-atheist friends or at least try to convince them that there really was a god and they were just confused.

Eventually leading me to the idea that the arguments (again i guess i just inherently choose "scientific-ish" over "intuition" type thinking) in favor of a creator less universe were stronger than the ones in favor of it. Or rather, a creator is"unnecessary" to explain the universe, and lacking proof , i remain unconvinced.

Unconvinced / Skeptical though doesn't mean "totally against" the idea of a god(s)/creator , just that ... skeptical/unconvinced.

And as stated before i really would prefer there to be a creator , especially one with a guidebook and sort of "owners manual" for life. Somehow the idea of my existance not contiuing is upsetting and having to roll-our-own ethics seems... difficult, among other things.

this was good.....

some sorta side thoughts....

-Science Class Circa 6th Grade (no direct effect at this time, but it did set me up for the "scientific method/rationality" being the way to truth)

this is where general curiosity gets me. I feel as if.....the way we are hardwired naturally begins to come into play here.....for example I am very "feel" oriented....instinctual.....ambiguous believe it or not in my makeup and processing.....I tend to seek truth in different forms than just hard fact...and I started leaning that way due to a general mistrust of the hard "fact" I was receiving from the Jehovahs Witnesses....there was a great deal of solid "evidence" they presented to my young mind....but I saw so many fucked up families and a lack of joy and fullfillment that internally I was allready saying to myself that "there had to be something more..." So I began to distrust basic data....basic "facts' because I felt they were (still do) maniputable. Socialogy, history, creative forms of expression....those things became pathways for me instead...I could "feel" my way through them and be satisfied.

- Random "worldly" information (that seemed somehow valid , and not necessarily contradictory to Christianity but that there were truths to be found elsewhere other than through Christianity)

I for one am actually very grateful for other forms of truth....in my case they have tended to lead me back to where I am now, and I agree they are worth exploring

- Other religious learning and research beyond my "traditional" christian sources. Some of it contradictory to Christianity (thus making me think maybe Christianity was flawed (but i still never questioned the existence of god really).

I think that Christianity IS flawed......Christendom, in particular, and that it always has been.....however i do contrast that with the life of Christ, which to me is flawless....I see the standard and mankind's feeble attempts to follow it and I actually agree with you here, which is why my faith and approach has never been one that is rooted in tradition, I'd be defeated far too easy if I used that approach

- Then interaction with people that just totally didn't believe in god at all (crazy i thought, at the time) various articles/books mentioning this.

Again, i am grateful for all sorts of perspectives and people. The majority of my friends are non beleivers. its always been that way, and I DO learn from them, and I know they learn from me as well. I tend to beleive however, that I recognize a lack of fullfillmetn in most of them however, and a sort of exhaustion

- Further reading about Evolution vs Creation. Covering the whole span of my adult life, initially the goal was to have "scientific" arguments in favor of Creation so i could shut up my quasi-atheist friends or at least try to convince them that there really was a god and they were just confused.

Eventually leading me to the idea that the arguments (again i guess i just inherently choose "scientific-ish" over "intuition" type thinking) in favor of a creator less universe were stronger than the ones in favor of it. Or rather, a creator is"unnecessary" to explain the universe, and lacking proof , i remain unconvinced.

I understand this. And I have no idea how the universe and earth came to be. I know there are lots of theories, a handful of good solid facts.....but all of it eventually always leads me back to one undeniable quandry: the source, the beginning.......we are finite and we decompose. That in and of itself marrs our ability to see with true depth. I have no problem with evoluition in general save for the creation of Man, because i want to belevie we are exactly whta the biblical model says we are - the sole creation built in Gods own image....I want to be the exception, and therefore when I look upon the immediacy of the relationship aspect of God I have a hard time reconcilling the theory of eveolution when iti comes to Homo Built IN Gods Image Sapiens.....it does not make sense to me. Its inconsistent with the nature of an alleged creator who wanted worshippers.

Unconvinced / Skeptical though doesn't mean "totally against" the idea of a god(s)/creator , just that ... skeptical/unconvinced.

I get it. I guess you can put me on thether side....random, without true meaning or purpose...a cosmic accident....to me that requires monumental degrees of faith that i do not possess.

And as stated before i really would prefer there to be a creator , especially one with a guidebook and sort of "owners manual" for life. Somehow the idea of my existance not contiuing is upsetting and having to roll-our-own ethics seems... difficult, among other things.

I think this admission on your part is rather noble,and that these feeligns are built into the hearts of all men, which is one of the reasons we work so hard to harden our hearts.

[Shade Everdark]

Perosanlly, I have spent time in many of those sects in my own search and although I agree with the basic premise of what yrou suggesting here - I cannot help but be convinced that "how" God is presented to you - leads to why, and what that means to you in terms of your own identity.....which I why I made the effort to ask that question about perspectives based on religeous upbringing. In actuality I have a difficult time (this is just me) understanding how someone can decide there is possibly not a God withothout divorcing themselves from an oppressive religeous background. I suppose Im saying that some degree of logic is there in teh equating - but that there is still very much the underlying hurt that paved the pathway. Still - thats not meant to be a braod sweeping statement, even if that sounds contradictory

I don't know how I'd ever adequately explain it, Steven, if I were asked to (I know I wasn't). I was baptized and confirmed as a Lutheran, and generally, that's a pretty laid-back sect of Christianity, from what I can tell. As I remember, to Lutherans a personal and private relationship with god is paramount. I don't recall it being oppressive at all (unless you can count being made to get up insanely early on a Sunday morning for services and Sunday school oppressive). As time went on, though, it just...stopped making sense. I couldn't continue to have faith in something that I didn't know was out there. The whole thing fell apart, like a centuries-old, neglected building.

[Steven]

I don't know how I'd ever adequately explain it, Steven, if I were asked to (I know I wasn't). I was baptized and confirmed as a Lutheran, and generally, that's a pretty laid-back sect of Christianity, from what I can tell. As I remember, to Lutherans a personal and private relationship with god is paramount. I don't recall it being oppressive at all (unless you can count being made to get up insanely early on a Sunday morning for services and Sunday school oppressive). As time went on, though, it just...stopped making sense. I couldn't continue to have faith in something that I didn't know was out there. The whole thing fell apart, like a centuries-old, neglected building.

then this is a learning curve for me......(good post)

[saechalyn]

In actuality I have a difficult time (this is just me) understanding how someone can decide there is possibly not a God withothout divorcing themselves from an oppressive religeous background. I suppose Im saying that some degree of logic is there in teh equating - but that there is still very much the underlying hurt that paved the pathway. Still - thats not meant to be a braod sweeping statement, even if that sounds contradictory

It wasn't that way for me. I grew up catholic, and I know everybody has their favorite mean nun story but...I don't. The nuns were wonderful. Church was wonderful. I didn't go because my parents dragged me, actually I went without them. Church and everything related to church was a sanctuary.

I didn't lose my faith through any of the obvious ways people assume when they meet me. When I questioned my sexuality, I found Dignity http://www.dignityusa.org/

When I found myself disagreeing with traditional church teachings on abortion, Catholics for Choice was there http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/

Similar to what Shade said, it just sort of fell out from under me. And not all at once either. And I was sad to see it go.

[Steven]

It wasn't that way for me. I grew up catholic, and I know everybody has their favorite mean nun story but...I don't. The nuns were wonderful. Church was wonderful. I didn't go because my parents dragged me, actually I went without them. Church and everything related to church was a sanctuary.

I didn't lose my faith through any of the obvious ways people assume when they meet me. When I questioned my sexuality, I found Dignity http://www.dignityusa.org/

When I found myself disagreeing with traditional church teachings on abortion, Catholics for Choice was there http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/

Similar to what Shade said, it just sort of fell out from under me. And not all at once either. And I was sad to see it go.

I suppose the best way I can relate to this is to say that there have been multiple periods of silence within my christian walk....where I could not feel or sense God. I suppose I would liken it to time spent alone in the wilderness.....when that relationship returned however it has always returned very powerfully. I beleive everybody struggles with their faith, but I have never lost it outright.

[hunhee]

I know people don't like to talk about it.. but science came up.. which opened the door to....

The science of Quantum Physics is about a science as you can get... and still... it hints that some intelligence is behind creation...

Nobody really likes to talk about that aspect of it though.

WHO says there are hints at intelligence behind creation? If you believe in God, there's absolutely NO room for humans and evolution, yet we evolve every day. Explain that one.

I don't know how I'd ever adequately explain it, Steven, if I were asked to (I know I wasn't). I was baptized and confirmed as a Lutheran, and generally, that's a pretty laid-back sect of Christianity, from what I can tell. As I remember, to Lutherans a personal and private relationship with god is paramount. I don't recall it being oppressive at all (unless you can count being made to get up insanely early on a Sunday morning for services and Sunday school oppressive). As time went on, though, it just...stopped making sense. I couldn't continue to have faith in something that I didn't know was out there. The whole thing fell apart, like a centuries-old, neglected building.

I have about the same background. I never felt oppressed, in fact, just the opposite, when I went to church, I learned about all kinds of good things, went to all kinds of youth events, I was even a Sunday School teacher. Everything seemed right, and good, and to me God was loving and forgiving and understanding.

Because I didn't want to be a half ass Sunday School teacher, I decided I should get cracking on reading the bible. I WANTED more knowledge about the Bible, and scriptures, and I wanted a deeper understanding of Jesus Christ and God. Wow, was I in for a surprise.

I quickly began to question things, and instead of my mind day dreaming about whatever 16 year olds day-dream about, during the reading of the sermon, I started to pay attention to what my pastor was saying. I didn't agree with it. I then read more and studied more, and asked more questions of my pastor, and the more and more I read, the less and less I believed. Every week I poured over sermons, and the more I listened and rationalized, the less I believed. So basically what Saechlayn said, it fell out from under me, not by my own choosing, but by my own reasoning. I too was sad to see it go, it meant that I didn't have all those fun church functions to go to anymore.

I still don't claim to be Atheist, I would LOVE to believe that there's this big safety net out there ready to catch me if I fall, but you know what? It seems more like a fantasy than reality.

I like to take credit for my own failings, my own actions and my own responsibilities, and eventually my own successes.

[Steven]

WHO says there are hints at intelligence behind creation? If you believe in God, there's absolutely NO room for humans and evolution, yet we evolve every day. Explain that one.

Did you mean no room for Humans IN Evolution? Because lots of christians actually do lean toward an evolutionary process with other species - just not humans.

I have about the same background. I never felt oppressed, in fact, just the opposite, when I went to church, I learned about all kinds of good things, went to all kinds of youth events, I was even a Sunday School teacher. Everything seemed right, and good, and to me God was loving and forgiving and understanding.

Because I didn't want to be a half ass Sunday School teacher, I decided I should get cracking on reading the bible. I WANTED more knowledge about the Bible, and scriptures, and I wanted a deeper understanding of Jesus Christ and God. Wow, was I in for a surprise.

ok this is good. but almost a reverse approach (not your fault). You started an exploration into that which you said you allready wholeheartedly beleived? Do you use that same approach in other areas of your life, where you align yourself with soemthign and then research it later? I have known many christians who get shook - and when I try to discuss in depth what is found in a particular passage I discover that in general - they dont really know thier bible besides the traditional tride and true and trite - understanding. You cant work any relationship that way.

I quickly began to question things, and instead of my mind day dreaming about whatever 16 year olds day-dream about, during the reading of the sermon, I started to pay attention to what my pastor was saying. I didn't agree with it. I then read more and studied more, and asked more questions of my pastor, and the more and more I read, the less and less I believed. Every week I poured over sermons, and the more I listened and rationalized, the less I believed. So basically what Saechlayn said, it fell out from under me, not by my own choosing, but by my own reasoning. I too was sad to see it go, it meant that I didn't have all those fun church functions to go to anymore.

sad to hear this. understandable, but sad. Again....feels like a lifestyle done in reverse. Chirch is "fun" for me I supppose....but not in a social based sense - it is pleasurable because it is a confriming of a quest an a great deal of thought processing.

I still don't claim to be Atheist, I would LOVE to believe that there's this big safety net out there ready to catch me if I fall, but you know what? It seems more like a fantasy than reality.

I dont fantsize about anythgin in my spiritual walk Hun Hee.... I bust my ass. I work. I sweat and study and pour into others and test the waters and work a standard. Nothing fantastical about that.

I like to take credit for my own failings, my own actions and my own responsibilities, and eventually my own successes.

this still confuses me, this argument. Why can yo NOT do these things, as a Christian? I used an example a couple of pages before - where if within my own research and even within counseling I come to have some lightbulb moments that help me plot a course....then that is socialy acceptable and hey atta boy. But If I calim that same type of revelation came from (uh oh) "God" then Im a wack job. Everythin in my life is my responsibility. All of the ditch digging in my life - I DID. But I beleive in God's help. I beleive I had a great deal of confirmation along the way. I suppose I could best summerize it by saying that God has an active hand in equipping you - to do the work that needs to get done. As for catchign you when you fall....yes - this happens at times. Other time syou just fall, get dirt in your teeth, feel the pain. And then God is there to say "ok, I bet that sucked, bet yoru wondering how you got yourself there....let's talk about it while we move along....so get up, we got work to do...'

[TygerLili]

I believe that something put us here other than a freak accident. I believe evolution has helped the process along, and continues to do so, but something had to get the proverbial ball rolling. Whatever that is or was, I don't feel that it has any bearing on my life or the world around me or ever has during my lifetime. Like many others have said, modern religion stopped making sense to me at a very young age, and, despite years of reading and hearing others beliefs and teachings on the subject, it continues to fail to do so. Whatever everyone else wants to believe or not believe is cool with me, as long as they respect everyone else's opinions.

On another note I almost always avoid threads like this because I don't like feeling like I am expected to defend what I believe not just once, but multiple times. Anyone who wants to is free to pick apart what I have to say and twist my words, but I've said what I want to say and I am done. Further discussion is futile.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

On another note I almost always avoid threads like this because I don't like feeling like I am expected to defend what I believe not just once, but multiple times. Anyone who wants to is free to pick apart what I have to say and twist my words, but I've said what I want to say and I am done. Further discussion is futile.

Nice to see some people that don't normally weigh in on such things doing so. Really theres always more to be learned, we never are "done" learning, at least i hope not.

Unfortunately that's what makes things controversial, when there's a lot of dispute about something people care deeply about or think is important... they end up "calling us" on our opinions. Unfortunately subjects of "substance" tend also to be subjects likely to cause friction for the less easygoing type folk.

I will say though that the (fairly often) occurrence of people pointing out what they see as errors (or at least potential errors) in my thinking has caused me to learn a lot, and think a lot more than i would have otherwise.

The problem is when they do it in a way that seems mean or very negative.

I LIKE people asking me to defend my viewpoints if they are calm/friendly about it. The problem comes when people get all hot under the collar and cant stay rational. Something, hopefully we can keep to a minimum on DGN.

[the eternal]

I'm in kind of a unique position for this thread.

Most Jews believe in g-d, but aren't that religious.

Tradition is important

People are important.

We're not just a religion, but an ethnicity.

Unlike say, during the Spanish inquisition,

Hitler didn't care if we burned old testament passages daily and pissed on our yarmulkas.

We'd still fry.

I BELIEVE IN G-D.

Though I haven't always felt that way.

BUT, even if I became atheist tomorrow, I'd still go to synagogue,

do the fun activities hunhee talks about,

and celebrate the holidays.

And, I'd be active.

Since Judaism puts Tikkun Olam, healing the world,

as one of its central tenets, I know that, in addition to belief, it's one of my duties to stand up for what's right, and to make a difference.

(One of the many things that keeps my Camus-loving heart from going Nihilist)

One of the local Jewish leaders will be giving the keynote address at a lecture for the

Michigan Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice to commemorate the 35th anniversary of Roe vs Wade.

She'll be speaking alongside representatives of

wonderful organizations like the ACLU, NOW, and the Planned Parenthood Advocates of Michigan.

Just seeing that makes me proud of my religion.

Even if it's not completely tied around g-d.

This may sound completely heretical, but I don't think you have to believe in g-d to proclaim yourself Christian or otherwise.

In fact there's an entire congregation of non-believers near my future home in the Detroit area.

I personally am struggling whether I'm going to join it,

(it would be the easiest for Bean Water to balance her interest in my faith and atheism,

but it may pose too much of a compromise for me)

but regardless who am I to say, they're not my people, even if they've lost faith.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I know people don't like to talk about it.. but science came up.. which opened the door to....

The science of Quantum Physics is about a science as you can get... and still... it hints that some intelligence is behind creation...

Nobody really likes to talk about that aspect of it though.

Lots of people like to talk about it. At least in the stuff i read.

Just a FEW places where science & religion are discussed and seeing god in science and science in the context of faith is pointed to at length:

Science & Faith Websites

Great stuff there. Fascinating reading even without a large bank account to buy all the books / magazines i want on the subject.

People specifically like to put "arguments for the case of god in science" into the mouths of people like Steven Hawking (Quantum Mechanics/Cosmology) and Einstein (General/Special Relativity/Cosmology) Both of them, and neither "branch" of science have anything that necessarily include or exclude the potential existence of god. What science often tends to hint at (traditionally) is that god isn't "necessary" to describe the existence of the universe, that doesn't mean god doesn't exist, it just means it/he/she isn't (theoretically) necessary. There are them that argue the opposite, but thats a philosophical question more than a scientific one, thus the controversy.

Both Hawking and Einstein while randomly using the word "god" in a few of their writings have clarified quite clearly that they see no god anywhere in the discoveries they made. Not that this means they are right about it, but those two names often have a few quotes taken out of context and labeled incorrectly as theists (both hardcore atheists) .

We can say that Quantum Mechanics hints that there is no god because it often can be interpreted as the universe having "no point and no predictability, its just random" (oversimplification) and also , specifically in the quarter century the idea of Quantum Fluctuations being proven (seemingly things popping into existence from nowhere) could argue well then the supernatural/god IS needed to explain this, or since well look it just happened naturally .. what do we need god for?

This still doesn't "prove/disprove" anything one way or another, often i think we can only hope to point ourselves in what seems to be the most correct direction.

[rose_and_swords]

For me, God is a subject I'm still debating. On one hand, I really feel as if something had a hand in creating the universe. But on the other, the Christo-Judaic-Islamic vision just doesn't seem to work in my mind. I really don't see God as a single entity with a gender. God for me is more fluid, shapeless, maliable. I think God is neither male nor female, but both; yet having no gender at the same time. God is like the tide, a thunderstorm, or an earthquake. A force of nature to be reckoned with, but respected and not feared. (When someone says "God-fearing" I look at them funny. Its hard for me to understand how anyone can fear God, when the Bible/Torah/Quran all say more or less "I am God. I am love. Do not fear me." Is that odd? But that's off subject.)

But I don't think God influences the universe through waving a hand around and things just happen. I think it's far more subtle. I think God doesn't try to control, because God wants us all to have individual freedom to choose, and make decisions for ourselves, and be responcible for our actions. Thats why I think there is some truth in Astrology and Magic. However, the only real way that God influences the world directly is through Kharma. Which is why it seems to me like when you do something good, you will have good things happen. When you do something bad, bad things happen. So, I guess you can see the contradictions in all there.

So, short answer. Yes, I do belive in God. Just not the God of Abraham.

Long answer: Really complex explination above, but I think it explains in my view, that God is a really complex subject.