Sex

[Blackmail]

WARNING: No one is a bad person for what they do sexually. Stealing, murdering, hurting people, etc can make you a bad person - sex doesn't (aside from a few cases I suppose).

This thread is to open discourse on the subject of sex and it's ties to emotional health, not make anyone feel bad. So if this makes you uncomfortable then I would suggest refraining from reading this.

There is a sexuality forum and lots of different topics get mentioned and alot of personal information gets discussed. I admit I have cringed at some of the things I have read, but it's not for me to say what someone should or shouldn't do in their bedrooms.

However, I have often wondered if it is emotionally unhealthy to partake in certain sexual acts, or perhaps the sexual act is not what is unhealthy but it is rather the end result of some emotional problem.

I read an article in men's health magazine about 6 months ago where they surveyed "swingers". The clinical depression rate amongst these people was like 20 times higher than people in monogamous relationships. Thus one could surmise that in general (and there are exceptions to everything) that it is unhappy people who enter into "open" relationships.

Another example is strippers. Most strippers (and porn stars) are people with traumatic childhoods with abuse or molestation in their past - and yes there have been studies documenting this.

I am a huge fan of Dr. Drew Pinski (host of Lovelines with Adam Carolla - it is still on in radio form - used to be on MTV). He does a show on Discovery Health Channel about sexual issues - aside from being a psycholigist, he is a psychiatrist and sexual therapist. Now I know people here may not like what he has to say, but I tend to agree with him most of the time.

He advises against almost everything that gets brought up in the DGN sex forums. In my opinion, he is not wrong in what he says. Some of the people here have admitted to abuse in their past, some of the people have admitted to serious drug problems.

I got into the "goth" scene strictly for the music. But I noticed in the goth scene is a far higher number of people into "alternative" forms of sex but I've also noticed a far higher rate of depression and hardships in the goth scene as opposed to my non goth friends. This is strictly anecdotal my non goth friends have no interest in threesomes, orgy's, BDSM, fetish shows, etc and they are much happier than my goth friends who are interested in those things. I do believe that this is not coincidence. I am open to opposing viewpoints though.

[Msterbeau]

Having firsthand knowledge of a lot of what you're talking about.. I have to agree for the most part.

I'm a diagnosed sex/love/relationship addict. Like any addiction, it's a psychological reaction to repressed emotional issues... most likely from childhood. The difference with sex/love addiction is in the vastness of it's manifestations and the fact that it is often ignored or undetected because these things are such integral parts of being human.

I'll contribute more as others chime in....

[Onyx]

It's really difficult to comment on this type of thing because one can be seen as judgemental no matter how it's phrased. Well hell, here goes. I'm just going to think out loud here...

The idea of swinging doesn't appeal to me.

I'm thinking more and more that being completely free with sexuality has destroyed the sweet emotional bonding that could have existed between men and women. I have two daughters and they are growing up in a totally different world than I did. I don't even know what to tell them or how to advise them. It's a way different world.

It's generally expected that after you date someone for awhile you'll be having sex. Not too many years ago that could have been grounds for one to lose custody of their children, be an outcast and looked down on. Still is in the deep south and some conservative pockets of the north and elsewhere.

To me the ideal would be to meet someone you adore so very much that you'd be willing to wait until marriage. (Funny how completely *radical* that idea sounds to me now). The idea of marriage to me is very romantic and sweet ~ promising yourself to that one person the rest of your life. Too bad it rarely is good in reality. I know a few married couples who are very very happy and that gives me a bit of hope, but the large majority are not, and that makes me sad.

(had to snip just a bit)

[Blackmail]

So Marc did you think you became a sex addict because of your environment or is it genetics?

Onyx, my question is why are some people into orgies and some people repulsed by the idea? Why do you save yourself for that special person why others have sex with someone different everynight? Again, is it environment or is it just that we are all different and all have different interests and opinions?

[Der Nister]

I refuse to allow myself to open up to some women I've been with because the gave me enough reason to not trust them with my emtional side. Also, I'm very alpha male with women - I'm the only one or I'll have nothing to do with the relationship.

Call it selfishness if you like - one has to protect themself.

[Onyx]

Onyx, my question is why are some people into orgies and some people repulsed by the idea?    Why do you save yourself for that special person why others have sex with someone different everynight?  Again, is it environment or is it just that we are all different and all have different interests and opinions?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting question.

As for me, I seem to be wired that way. I'm not sure why.

Being this way can make for a lot of lonely times, but I just can't be any other way. I need closeness and an emotional connection as well as physical attraction, and I only want to share that with one person.

[torn asunder]

to me, sexual "deviance", for lack of a better term, is all about personal choice, regardless of underlying reasons. if it works for you in a healthy, positive way, go for it! if it doesn't, it's up to the individual personally (not anyone else) to take charge of their life and change things for the better.i, myself, am a happy, well-adjusted individual, but i think that monogamy is over-rated, and actually, not very plausible anymore. i don't mean to put down emotional connection, because i deeply care for each of the women i'm seeing right now. i am, however, also open to meeting someone new, as are they. one is open to having another involved in our relationship, the other isn't, but since we talk about things and don't pretend or hold back, things work right now. jealousy, posessiveness, insecurity - all of these stem from people not knowing who they are, what they want, and what their partner(s) want, and that stems from a lack of communication and openness with each other. people fear judgement, they fear rejection, they fear ridicule, so they keep their thoughts and desires to themselves, and then become resentful of their other because of it. we're all looking for the same thing, really, to be accepted for who we are, to be loved and cared for, supported, nurtured, and made to feel we're worthy of happiness. many people look outside themselves for this, which is why many people feel let down when the external source they rely on disappears.

just had a though - what is "deviance" anyway? sexual perversions, like dominant/submissive roles, s&m, bondage, anal, oral, polyamory, anything other than missionary position!?!? who defines it? sure, society usually dictates "normal" by whatever is the most common, but society's tastes change with the times, and what was once taboo, is now acceptable behavior. maybe the "sexual deviants" are just normal society, ahead of the curve!? personally, i will listen to others' opinions on things, but ultimately, the decision is mine, based on what i, alone, feel is right for me. dr. pinski was mentioned before - while he's certainly entitled to his opinion, honestly, who is he to tell me how to live my life, you know? i'm sure his studies are valid in and of themselves, in his expereince, but how do they apply to my individual life? i am unique, and therefore don't need to rely on someone else to tell me what's good/bad for me.

as far as the goth scene having more a more than average amount of people with issues, there's a good reason for that... people with things in common tend to congregate together. from what i see, the scene is very open-minded and accepting of others, no matter the social stigmas associated with any certain individuals mental/physical issues. everyone (generally) wants to feel wanted, accepted, a part of things, and this scene caters to that by its very nature. jocks/preps, nascar fans, football fans, bikers, the 70's preservation society, goths, amway reps... all have certain traits that appeal to that crowd, which is why they feel they belong. i'm not really "goth" at all - i'm almost always happy, (anymore) i don't know much at all about the music (other than i like some of it) i only occasionally "dress up", and i have no real mental/psychological issues to speak of. i'm a biker, a computer programmer, a musician, a poet, a boxer, a theoretical science geek, and a philosopher, just to name a few - and yet, with all of this, i'm interested in most of the things i listed previously, because i find them interesting, exciting, and most of all, fun! i feel life is meant to be lived and loved, so why not experience all you can?

umm... wow - i really went off, didn't i!? :laughing :fear sorry about all that, i hope some of it relates to this topic! :whistling

[Onyx]

monogamy is over-rated, and actually, not very plausible anymore. i don't mean to put down emotional connection, because i deeply care for each of the women i'm seeing right now. i am, however, also open to meeting someone new, as are they. one is open to having another involved in our relationship, the other isn't, but since we talk about things and don't pretend or hold back, things work right now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is the way most of the men I meet do feel, that monogamy is not very plausible. Why is it not plausible? (Not directed to you in particular but to anyone who wants to comment).

I understand that one can care deeply for more than one person, but imagining someone I'm in love with being intimate with someone else makes me feel like I've been punched in the stomach. I don't think I could ever be comfortable with that.

[Msterbeau]

So Marc did you think you became a sex addict because of your environment or is it genetics?   

I think both.

I'm pretty far up the "senitive" scale. That comes from genetics and I think makes myself and those like me more... let's use the word "susceptible" to unhealthy environmental situations. Here's the interesting thing in my case. Most addicts come from situations where family/friends/caretakers were abusive. Usually a lot abusive. Not so for me... My parents weren't great at expressing their love verbally or physically but they were otherwise great parents. ( I think) BUT.. for me... that might have played a big role. For a person as sensitive as I... that might be enough. I have a lot of issues around the Catholic church and it's dogma as well... and I suspect having gone to a Catholic school did me zero favors. Plenty of shame and fear to keep a young boy in his place...... :doh

What I've learned from recovery, therapy and raising my children is that people are so incredibly variable... I find it very difficult to make blanket statements about people anymore. One person's stupid is another's normal.

[Msterbeau]

I want a man I don't have to share! Sometimes I think I'm going to be one of those lonely old ladies with 100 cats. grin.gif

What??? How could you be so insensitive to those cat's feelings????? You should have only one and give it all of your love... :whistling

[Blackmail]

TA, Dr. Drew is a sexual therapist who speaks at psychologist clinics and lectures, he hosts a radio and TV show. People come to him for advice, he doesn't tell anyone how to live their lives, he basically answers questions people have for him, and if people are asking it probably means they are asking for a reason.

You make an interesting point, that psychology is just an opinion. I wonder if that is true or not.

Your other point about people into deviant sex are ahead of the curve, a quick look thru history will show that every culture that has been "open" about orgies and marriageless living have collapsed. I don't think this is coinidence. So my argument would be these people are behind the curve as Western Culture has been the most dominant culture in the history of the planet. Sure the definition of "normal" evolves but people still get married, people still believe in meeting one special person, maybe not the people we know thru city club or DGN, but Western Culture in general. And let's face it, the best way for a child to be raised is by a loving father and mother - if a father cheats on a mother it can do serious psychological harm to a child (according to studies of which I can provide links to) so the best way to populate the earth would be to practice a monogamous, caring marriage. If you don't plan to have children then a "deviant" lifestyle may work. I vehemantly believe that this lifestyle is not good for children.

Onyx, for anyone to say that monagamy is not plausible is completely ridiculous. I assume TA was saying it wasn't plausible for him, and not people in general. It's a shame you meet men like that, but almost everyone I know is into monagamy. I am in a 10 month relationship, have been in relationship for 2 years - never had any desire to be with anyone else. I am thinking of all my friends and most of them are the same.

[Msterbeau]

I think TA's words are worth thinking about. Everyone has feelings on what's right and wrong ... what's OK sexually, etc. Our beliefs and opinions are formed in the context of how we were raised and out lifes experiences. Since these are all different.. there's obviously going to be a disparity of opinion.

Onyx. Can I presume that you were raised in a pretty strict Christian upbringing? If so...it would certainly make sense that you hold the views that you do. It's also wh ythat's the norm in this country... that's how the majority were raised.

Another interesting tidbit I learned in therapy: People generally follow the patterns/issues of their parents/caretakers... OR ... they go completely the opposite.

[Onyx]

What???  How could you be so insensitive to those cat's feelings?????  You should have only one and give it all of your love...  :whistling

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh gawd. I should have known someone would snag that comment before I could delete it!

:laughing

[Msterbeau]

Oh gawd.  I should have known someone would snag that comment before I could delete it!

:laughing

We're a snappy bunch here...

[Onyx]

.

Onyx.  Can I presume that you were raised in a pretty strict Christian upbringing?  If so...it would certainly make sense that you hold the views that you do.  It's also wh ythat's the norm in this country... that's how the majority were raised. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, no. I never saw the inside of a church until I was in my teens. My parents fought like cats and dogs. Terrible example of a "marriage". The whole neighborhood could hear them screaming. My dad was an alcoholic and a cheater.

I went to church (many different ones, exploring different faiths) on my own. Still exploring.

I'm a strange bird.

[Blackmail]

I think TA's words are worth thinking about.  Everyone has feelings on what's right and wrong ...  what's OK sexually, etc.  Our beliefs and opinions are formed in the context of how we were raised and out lifes experiences.  Since these are all different..  there's obviously going to be a disparity of opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree.

And I never said his views were wrong. I never said people who are swingers or whatever were wrong. I am just asking if it is a result of a dysfunction or emotional problem, for him it does not seem to be. However there seems to be evidence that it is for others.

Put it this way, many strippers - and everyone who has known a stripper can probably attest to this - come from horrible childhoods. Is this purely coincidence?

[kellygrrrrrl]

I come from an extremely broken home....

Never brought up in ANY faiths

I suppose I hold the same values as Onyx as far as this goes...

I think maybe with time and growing and learning from the past, I have learned what NOT to do to have a successful relationship.

The one thing I always told myself, was that I would never be like my parents.

[Msterbeau]

Actually, no.  I never saw the inside of a church until I was in my teens.  My parents fought like cats and dogs.  Terrible example of a "marriage".  The whole neighborhood could hear them screaming.  My dad was an alcoholic and a cheater.

I went to church (many different ones, exploring different faiths) on my own.  Still exploring. 

I'm a strange bird.

Actually.. you fit the "totally opposite" category that I mentioned... There may still be issues that you deal with as a result of your experiences as a child, but you've obviously decided in many respects to be the antithesis of your parents lifestyle. I've met some remarkable people like you. It's great to see. =)

[Msterbeau]

Put it this way, many strippers - and everyone who has known a stripper can probably attest to this - come from horrible childhoods.    Is this purely coincidence?

Not bloody likely... although a look at the gene pool might prove interesting, too. That said, I can think of one woman involved int the sex industry that defies this. Married, smart as hell, kids know everything and seem well adjusted, but she loves what she does.. *Shrugs* The exception to the rule, I magine.

[Rayne]

I come from an extremely broken home....

Never brought up in ANY faiths

I suppose I hold the same values as Onyx as far as this goes...

I think maybe with time and growing and learning from the past, I have learned what NOT to do to have a successful relationship.

The one thing I always told myself, was that I would never be like my parents.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Me too ... me too ... oh my, the childhood I come from ... few know.

I had to learn on my own as far as most things go ... I have two failed marriages behind me ... four beautiful children ... and now, I have Phee. :grin

It's been quite a road ... but I finally think I'm getting there.

[Blackmail]

Not bloody likely...  although a look at the gene pool might prove interesting, too.  That said, I can think of one woman involved int the sex industry that defies this.  Married, smart as hell, kids know everything and seem well adjusted, but she loves what she does..  *Shrugs*  The exception to the rule, I rmagine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you are right, some people do defie this. I remember howard stern would have adult female stars on all the time and he would pry into their personal lives and ask them if they were molested or abused and about 99% of the time the girl would start crying and admit that yes, she was abused.

However there was a girl named Tera Patrick. She is hot as hell by the way. Nonetheless she came from a good family, she is registered nurse with a college education and could make lots of money doing almost anything she wanted and could marry anyone she wanted - she is well spoken and smart. She chose to go into porn because she likes having sex with different men on film.

Above, TA proved that he is a healthy, smart guy who has is doing well and he chooses to live a lifestyle outside the mainstream.

I bet there are examples of everything though. For example I think a broken home makes it more likely that you will get involved with drugs. Not everyone from a broken home gets into drugs, alot of people who are from great families get hooked on heroine.

[Killer_Bunnie]

I'm not sure that now is a good time for me to say what I think on swinger relationships, but I'm going to anyhow. I fully beleive that you can't be truely happy in a relationship of that kind, I have been forced into one (not by him, but because I love him and he just couldn't be in a monogomus relationship anymore), and knew before I let myself be a part of his little polly world that he was not a happy person, and would never let himself be happy with just one person. now I am not a happy person because I don't play well with other girls and hate to share anyone I love as much as I love him. I don't think it would be a problem if we didn't love eachother or have a child on the way, but because we do it causes me all types of depression. I have come to realise latley that because I have to share him, maybe he should have to share me, I just can't bring myself to do it because I always felt like it was cheating to be with 2 men for relationship reasons at the same time unless you are just dating because there are no real ties there, but we have been together for quite a long while.

I have in the last year gone to only one of the (orgy) partys with him, and because I was the only female and because I don't think that an orgy is for me after trying them in my past, I didn't like it at all, I wanted to go home and just watch a movie, like "normal" people do on a week night date.

I know I am in a messed up sex/love life/relationship, but I let myself be in it, so it is my own fault and nobody else's fault in any way. People tell me to leave him, and I will not, because I am not ready to, I have tried it, and we still kept going back to eachother for everything. we started as just people who frequently had sex, didn't meet eachothers friends or familys really for about a month and a half of just sex and the occasional movie before going to a hotel. He may do stupid things, and he may be possibly the best person out there at pissing me off, but right now I'm such a rollercoaster of emotions that I don't know how much of it is really me.

I went a bit off subject, but do feel better, and was forced to look at my current standings which I needed to do

[kellygrrrrrl]

I get jealous when another woman LOOKs at my man.......although I never do anything cause I think it is good for him....(Boosts the ego which boosts the DRIVE!! :devil ) I love it when girls hit on him cause he gets so excited and he needs that.....When he feels low and stuff, it boosts him up in ways that I can't...sometimes you need an outside perspective or compliment...BUT THAT'S AS FAR AS THAT GOES!

I have some friends that are swingers, and from what I observe, they are always fighting, arguing, etc...

They were a great, cute couple....then they brought someone into the equasion. They've now been doing this for a short time, but in this short time, I have noticed now that they argue all of the time, and when He goes out to Seek other gals, and she does the same, they come home accusing eachother of cheating.....

I figure now, that sex will never be the same for them, they will never be good enough for eachother without having to bring someone else in.

I went over there the other day to visit them....they now have a live in "3rd Party".....and while the gal was away, the guy and the 3rd did play....and while she was away...I wouldn't be surprised that she played as well....

Ohhh the arguments I'm sure they will be having.... :doh

[phee]

:blushing

Me too ... me too ... oh my, the childhood I come from ... few know.

I had to learn on my own as far as most things go ... I have two failed marriages behind me ... four beautiful children ... and now, I have Phee. :grin

It's been quite a road ... but I finally think I'm getting there.

[Msterbeau]

  For example I think a broken home makes it more likely that you will get involved with drugs.  Not everyone from a broken home gets into drugs, alot of people who are from great families get hooked on heroine.

Addiction to sex, relationships, drugs, alchohol, food, etc... they are all part of people's coping mechanisms gone haywire ...