Our nation's Senate

[Soulrev]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,196651,00.html

I'm pissed. Beyond pissed. Democrats, republicans, all of them. George Bush, even though I voted for him I wish the democrats would have their way and impeach his treasonous ass right now. Just wait for November. We're going to see the most new Senators in office this year than ever before in the history of our country, I guarantee you. The ones who voted for this, we Americans, who give a damn about OUR country and not our Corporate America who wants to keep cheap labor, we will make sure the ones who voted for this will be gone.

I just pray the House doesn't give in to this shit. We have one last hope. If not, get ready to bow before the Mexican government.

Oh how about the amendment that Arlen Specter started basically saying that we cannot build fences or walls on our borders unless we clear it with the Mexican government first? LOL.

Wow. This country really is fucked. That one article isn't enough to cover the whole story so I encourage each and every one of you to turn your TV on right now or start researching about the treason that is being committed in our country right now by our own Senators.

They want to give people who broke our laws amnesty FOR breaking our laws.

Why don't I just change my name to Juan, get a fake social security card and avoid my own legal troubles? They're GIVING THEM a free ticket, where's mine?

Fuck.

[BrassFusion]

Uh.

Why don't they deserve the same rights and responsibilites as you do? I assume it's not just because they're brown. There has to be a better reason.

[Soulrev]

I didn't say they don't deserve it, did I say that? I apologize if I did.

I'm all for people having rights but when you come into my country illegally, break my country's laws to get a job, break my country's laws by not paying taxes, then I have a problem with you. I don't know about you but I pay my taxes, and vote, oh yeah and I'm a LEGAL citizen, so *I* have the right to bitch when other people are getting a free ride on my dime.

And it's not all their fault either. Corporate America wants cheap labor and the companies hiring these people have a huge contribution to this. One company in specific had over 200 employees with the same social security number................

I'm also tired of the excuse that they "do jobs Americans won't do".. Well guess what I've been unemployed for 2 months and at this point I'd do anything short of sucking a dick for a job so anyone who uses that excuse could you please point me out to one of these jobs I supposedly won't do? Please?

Who the fuck said anything about them not deserving it? People come to this country every day the LEGAL way, why can't they do it? Are they better than everyone else who comes over here the legal way? It sure is an insult to not only we the people of this country, but to the people who are honest and come to our country according to our system.

[Soulrev]

Why not just let 12-20 million people out of prison cuz they deserve rights too , right? Criminals are criminals no matter what way you look at it, they broke our laws and they should be punished, not rewarded.

[The_Dark]

Anyone read it? 11 years. It will take them 11 years to get citizenship.

[phee]

Uh.

Why don't they deserve the same rights and responsibilites as you do? I assume it's not just because they're brown. There has to be a better reason.

Not a race thing...

Some people busted ass to be here and go through the process, and some people well didn't, because companies didn't ask them to pretty much...

[The_Dark]

My co-worker has spent somewhere around $4000 and 4 years of his life to become a Citizen. He has to re-new his green card next month. That costs another $205. next year.. he spends another $305 to finally become a Citizen. None of that even counts the year in lost wages because he had to wait for a work permit.

Fuck these people. Make them go through the system just like everyone else.

[phee]

My co-worker has spent somewhere around $4000 and 4 years of his life to become a Citizen. He has to re-new his green card next month. That costs another $205. next year.. he spends another $305 to finally become a Citizen. None of that even counts the year in lost wages because he had to wait for a work permit.

Fuck these people. Make them go through the system just like everyone else.

Indeed

[BrassFusion]

Why is it so expensive to become a citizen? I got mine for free.

And soul, you hit the nail on the head in your second full paragraph on post 3... it's corporate america that's to blame. If they couldn't take advantage of cheap labor by being forced to apply the minimum wage to ALL workers, they'd have no incentive to hire illegal aliens.

But our government doesn't WANT to fuck the corporations. They want to fuck the working man.

[phee]

Why is it so expensive to become a citizen? I got mine for free.

And soul, you hit the nail on the head in your second full paragraph on post 3... it's corporate america that's to blame. If they couldn't take advantage of cheap labor by being forced to apply the minimum wage to ALL workers, they'd have no incentive to hire illegal aliens.

But our government doesn't WANT to fuck the corporations. They want to fuck the working man.

Very True

[The_Dark]

Why is it so expensive to become a citizen? I got mine for free.

And soul, you hit the nail on the head in your second full paragraph on post 3... it's corporate america that's to blame. If they couldn't take advantage of cheap labor by being forced to apply the minimum wage to ALL workers, they'd have no incentive to hire illegal aliens.

But our government doesn't WANT to fuck the corporations. They want to fuck the working man.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Were you born here? Then thats why it was free.

And in reality... the USA is one of the cheapest and easyest countrys to immagrate to. It costs on average $12k to move to Canada and you have to have a skill they need.

[Soulrev]

It costs on average $12k to move to Canada and you have to have a skill they need.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They only like guys with great SKILLS, GOSH!

[The_Dark]

Yep.. they beg me to move to Canada.

[Soulrev]

couldn't pay me to move there.. Well wait a minute yea you could as long as it was BC Lol...

[The_Dark]

You don't see me packing yet.

[BrassFusion]

That's because Canada has what's known as an infrastructure.

Oh, and there's this health care thing I keep hearing about...

[Blackmail]

I'd like all 12 million or whatever illegal aliens (from any country whatsoever) to be deported. I do believe that would open up several million jobs and if companies were forced to pay a decent wage, you bet the nation's unemployment rate would go down. I've already posted the stats in other threads but come on, illegal aliens are illegal aliens.

Furthermore, why don't mexican put more pressue on people like Vicente Fox to improve THEIR economy so they don't have to illegally reak havoc on OURS?

P.S. I know of illegal poles here in the Chicago area and I want them deported back to Polska. My family immigrated here legally from Polska and they should too.

[BrassFusion]

I'd like all 12 million or whatever illegal aliens (from any country whatsoever) to be deported.  I do believe that would open up several million jobs and if companies were forced to pay a decent wage, you bet the nation's unemployment rate would go down.    I've already posted the stats in other threads but come on, illegal aliens are illegal aliens.

Furthermore, why don't mexican put more pressue on people like Vicente Fox to improve THEIR economy so they don't have to illegally reak havoc on OURS? 

P.S. I know of illegal poles here in the Chicago area and I want them deported back to Polska.  My family immigrated here legally from Polska and they should too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That would cost way more than it would be worth... imagine how much money it would take to enforce that. We'd have to install retinal scanners and shit at crosswalks just to get the 12 million existing, not to mention maintaining that sort of ID system FOREVER. That's the reason GDub granted a sort of amnesty- because he knows taking a hard line won't prove successful, at least while he's in office. He doesn't want another embarassment like Iraq and he DOESN'T want any of his cronies to suffer for a stupid move like that.

None of the pressure I've put on my elected officials has made me any extra income. Go figure.

P.S. All that proves is that you're not racist against Mexicans in particular. I bet most of us had given you the benefit of the doubt anyway. I had.

[Blackmail]

That would cost way more than it would be worth... imagine how much money it would take to enforce that. We'd have to install retinal scanners and shit at crosswalks just to get the 12 million existing, not to mention maintaining that sort of ID system FOREVER. That's the reason GDub granted a sort of amnesty- because he knows taking a hard line won't prove successful, at least while he's in office. He doesn't want another embarassment like Iraq and he DOESN'T want any of his cronies to suffer for a stupid move like that.

You wouldn't need to do this. You'd slowly work trhu and enfore current INS policy. I know it will never happen, but it should. You know, because I think laws should be enforced, at least the serious ones and yeah I kinda consider illegal immigration to be somewhat serious consdering the crime rate in Orange County by illegals and the current atmosphere of terrorism in the world.

None of the pressure I've put on my elected officials has made me any extra income. Go figure.

What sort of pressure do you put on your elected officials? The sort of corruption and class warfare that happens in Mexico is grounds for a revolution, not a whiney letter to Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador because of people like Rene Bejarano. Instead of dealing with corrupt Mexico, people simply come here illegally and exacerbate the problem. President Fox has done nothing to help the people of Mexico.

P.S. All that proves is that you're not racist against Mexicans in particular. I bet most of us had given you the benefit of the doubt anyway. I had.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

uh, thanks.

I think there is a proper, legal and safe way to get into the United States. If you do not follow the proper, legal and safe way then I do think it's a problem, especially in L.A. where illegals commit alot of crime.

And as I've stated before, I think there should be punishment for business's that employ/exploit illegal immigrants.

By the way, google the name "Rafael Resendez-Ramirez" and you'll find a prime example of why I am opposed to illegal immigrants.

Also, you sort of scoffed at why Canada is tough on allowing illegal immigrants, have you read their official reason why? All their reasons apply to the U.S. as well but Canada is even more stringent, making you take a test proving you can assimilate into their culture. If America did that it would probably be considered racist or xenephobic.

Canada's test:

* Education * Language ability * Work experience * Age * Arranged employment in Canada * Adaptability

Each of these areas can earn you a specific number of points based on your responses.

The maximum number of points available for each area is listed below:

Education - 25 points Language - 24 points Work experience - 21 points Age - 10 points Arranged employment in Canada - 10 points Adaptability - 10 points

So using that criteria, very few Mexicans could get into Canada legally.

Also got this from the 2003 Yearbook of Immigration Statistics:

"Illegal immigration harms the American workforce. According to a study in 1996 of the costs of illegal immigration by Rice Univ. economist, Dr. Donald Huddle, illegal aliens were displacing roughly 730,000 American workers every year, at a cost of about $4.3 billion a year, and the supply of cheap labor depresses the wages and working conditions of the working poor. The approximate doubling of the illegal alien population since the time of that estimate means that the number of jobs lost to American workers and the costs of displacement would also likely have more than doubled.

Illegal immigration is a burden on the taxpayer. The costs of illegal immigration to the taxpayer are numerous, but the largest costs are education of their children, emergency medical care and incarceration for those arrested for crimes. Despite being ineligible, some illegal aliens also get welfare the same way they get jobs: with identity documents falsely identifying them as U.S. citizens. In addition, if they have U.S.-born children, they may collect welfare assistance in the name of those children. The annual net cost of illegal immigrants (after subtracting their tax payments) to the American taxpayer is likely to be more than $45 billion. Our recent study of the net fiscal “Costs of illegal immigration to Californians” estimated the partial costs at $10.5 billion in that state alone. "

[BrassFusion]

You wouldn't need to do this. You'd slowly work trhu and enfore current INS policy. I know it will never happen, but it should. You know, because I think laws should be enforced, at least the serious ones and yeah I kinda consider illegal immigration to be somewhat serious consdering the crime rate in Orange County by illegals and the current atmosphere of terrorism in the world.

One at a time.

You wouldn't need to do this.

Yes you would.

You'd slowly work trhu and enfore current INS policy.

If the policies had any practical application, they already would have been working. The current policies are USELESS.

I know it will never happen, but it should.

I don't think I need to respond to THAT sentence. You said it all.

You know, because I think laws should be enforced, at least the serious ones(...)

Laws in and of themselves are neither good nor evil. And in our country, according to our constitution, "laws" are meant to be revised. And who are YOU to judge which laws are "serious?" That sounds pretty subjective and arbitrary.

(...)and yeah I kinda consider illegal immigration to be somewhat serious consdering the crime rate in Orange County by illegals(...)

There's crime everywhere, by everyone. Attributing the crime only to illegal immigrants and calling them simply "illegals" with no argument is starting to make you sound like a racist.

(...)and the current atmosphere of terrorism in the world.

Unrelated bullshit brainwashing. There's ALWAYS been terrorism; we just used to call it "war" instead of painting ourselves to be hapless victims at the hands of the mud people.

What sort of pressure do you put on your elected officials? The sort of corruption and class warfare that happens in Mexico is grounds for a revolution, not a whiney letter to Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador because of people like Rene Bejarano. Instead of dealing with corrupt Mexico, people simply come here illegally and exacerbate the problem. President Fox has done nothing to help the people of Mexico.

So they're either illegals in Mexico who risk execution from their corrupt government, or illegals in the Estados Unidos, and if they're caught, will merely be expelled or otherwise mollycoddled. Which would YOU choose?

I think there is a proper, legal and safe way to get into the United States. If you do not follow the proper, legal and safe way then I do think it's a problem, especially in L.A. where illegals commit alot of crime.

The "proper, legal, and safe" way isn't practical for a lot of people.

I'm not going to directly quote and respond to the rest of your post because it wanders off topic; I don't CARE about Canada. Their country was not founded on opportunity like ours was.

As for "illegals" costing tax money, again, it's the system. If the system was more realistic in allowing people to immigrate legally, it wouldn't be worth it for them to dodge taxes completely.

In closing, I'll put my most important point in bold.

Our current theocratic climate promotes large families and discourages abortions and childfree people. It is counter-intuitive that this administration would not welcome immigrants more readily when they aim to increase the population in other ways.

Does that confuse anyone except me? Or should I start a new thread?

[phee]

Good response... what do you propose we do about the influx of illegal aliens?

[Blackmail]

One at a time.

First of all, before we get into this, do you want to take a guess who has doen more studies on illegal immigration between you or I? I'll give you one guess and here's a hint: it's not you

Yes you would.

Fale. Prove that is what you would need to do. here is some evidence that it's NOT what you would need to do:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back605.html

If the policies had any practical application, they already would have been working. The current policies are USELESS.

Sorry but you apparently havn't been following the debate at all. The main problem is enforcement of laws alreadu in the books.

Laws in and of themselves are neither good nor evil. And in our country, according to our constitution, "laws" are meant to be revised. And who are YOU to judge which laws are "serious?" That sounds pretty subjective and arbitrary.

Is it subjective to outlaw murder? Is it subjective to say that theft should be against the law. Your point is completely ludicrous.

There's crime everywhere, by everyone. Attributing the crime only to illegal immigrants and calling them simply "illegals" with no argument is starting to make you sound like a racist.

Well in an organized debate you would have been thrown out by now, using the racist card. You are the only one to bring up racism thus far and it's pretty obvious this is not about race.

Now have you studied the relationship between crime and illegal immigrants? Here's a clue from someone who has (me) there is a disproportionate amount of crime being commited by illegal aliens.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49965

-75 percent of people on L.A.'s most-wanted list are illegal aliens

-Nearly 25 percent of all inmates in California detention centers are here illegally.

-The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegals from south of the border.

more:

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer

Unrelated bullshit brainwashing. There's ALWAYS been terrorism; we just used to call it "war" instead of painting ourselves to be hapless victims at the hands of the mud people.

So you don't think it's easier for a terrorist to come in thru Mexico? Yes there has always been terorrism but only recently has there been terrorism inside the U.S.

So they're either illegals in Mexico who risk execution from their corrupt government, or illegals in the Estados Unidos, and if they're caught, will merely be expelled or otherwise mollycoddled. Which would YOU choose?

I would try to legal channels to move to the U.S. like several million other people do.

The "proper, legal, and safe" way isn't practical for a lot of people.

So? It isn't practical for me to not have a car to get to work. Should I steal one?

I'm not going to directly quote and respond to the rest of your post because it wanders off topic; I don't CARE about Canada. Their country was not founded on opportunity like ours was.

It isn't off topic, you just have a problem with facts. Of which, you have provided none.

As for "illegals" costing tax money, again, it's the system. If the system was more realistic in allowing people to immigrate legally, it wouldn't be worth it for them to dodge taxes completely.

Then fix the system if you think it's broke, don't come on a message board and defend illegal activity.

Can I ask that you read some studies befoere blindly responding and making simplistic and false observations?

By the way, if you read the other threads on this topic, most people here - even the two mexicans who post here - are opposed to illegal immigration.

[BrassFusion]

Forget it. That last post got so off-topic, personal, and illogical that it's pointless for me to try to rebut.

If I promise to study massaged numbers about crime statistics among the "illegals" in LA, you need to promise to read about using logical arguments in a debate.

Good response... what do you propose we do about the influx of illegal aliens?

Gradually and affordably turn them into citizens.

[phee]

Forget it. That last post got so off-topic, personal, and illogical that it's pointless for me to try to rebut.

If I promise to study massaged numbers about crime statistics among the "illegals" in LA, you need to promise to read about using logical arguments in a debate.

Gradually and affordably turn them into citizens.

Um... yes that is all fine and good, but what should be done?.... that is the result I understand... I think we all want illegal activity to stop... but how would you propose reaching this goal...?

[Blackmail]

Forget it. That last post got so off-topic, personal, and illogical that it's pointless for me to try to rebut.

If I promise to study massaged numbers about crime statistics among the "illegals" in LA, you need to promise to read about using logical arguments in a debate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so far your rebutalls to my posts have been "Yes it Does" when I point out that you probably don't need all sorts of high tech data to deport illegal aliens and then when I respond to you point by point you refuse to respond on the basis that my post was (allegedly) off-topic, personal and illogical.

You've done quite well for your side of the argument. Maybe you'll feel better if you call me a racist again.