Our nation's Senate

[BrassFusion]

Um... yes that is all fine and good, but what should be done?.... that is the result I understand... I think we all want illegal activity to stop... but how would you propose reaching this goal...?

Crack down on the major corporations who underpay people who can't furnish a legal right to work in the US. They'd have no incentive to hire illegal aliens.

[phee]

Crack down on the major corporations who underpay people who can't furnish a legal right to work in the US. They'd have no incentive to hire illegal aliens.

Good start...

[Guest Megalicious]

Why don't they deserve the same rights and responsibilites as you do?

= THEY don't, because they can't even have the respect to come into this country the right way. Not to mention most of them have no desire to learn english. My grandparents are from Mexico, they came to Southern California to make a better life. They worked hard, became citizens and were never looking for a "free handout". Growing up in the greater Los Angeles area almost all my life you see it everyday and yha it leaves a bitter taste in your mouth. You see American Citizens homeless and living down on sid row down by the LA bus station, that can't get any kind of goverment assitance. But the goverment is more then willing to hand over mine (and your) hard earned money to some Mexican citizen that just came into San Ysidro 2 days ago with her 5 kids. That in my eye's is BULLSHIT. SO NO I DONT BELIEVE THEY DESERVE THE SAME RIGTHS AS ME. We should take care of our own before we start worring about some other countries poor and helpless.

I assume it's not just because they're brown.

Excuse me if I borrow your term "Unrelated bullshit brainwashing" because thats what this statement is ..

[BrassFusion]

"Unrelated bullshit brainwashing" was in response to the terrorism connection. With the "brown" statement, I was asking the other poster to back up his assumptions about Mexicans in a way that applied to, say, Euro immigrants.

I was giving him a chance to justify what is often an argument by racists in a way that made it NON-racist. Please don't crucify me for that.

[Guest Megalicious]

Please don't crucify me for that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This made me laugh, its a pretty funny statement coming from a person that is "crucifing" ted as a racisist... thanks I needed the laugh.

[phee]

"Unrelated bullshit brainwashing" was in response to the terrorism connection.  With the "brown" statement, I was asking the other poster to back up his assumptions about Mexicans in a way that applied to, say, Euro immigrants.

I was giving him a chance to justify what is often an argument by racists in a way that made it NON-racist. Please don't crucify me for that.

Yes lets keep it civil...

[Guest Megalicious]

Yes lets keep it civil...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am I was just merly proving a point. It's not so great when someone responds to your post as "Unrelated bullshit brainwashing". Its just funny to me how some can justify their use for something, but when some tells it right back to them all of a sudden its wrong or OMG .. they aren't playing nice.

[phee]

Just a general thing... not pointed at any individual

[BrassFusion]

The US administration are the ones doing the brainwashing, connecting everything to "terrorism" when they're terrorists themselves. I wasn't calling Ted a racist or a terrorist or a mesmer or anything crazy like that.

Gonna try to segue back to the topic- Holding corporations accountable for their hiring practices would be easier and more fair that taking it out on the people that have shitty lives and sub-minimum wage income anyway. If that was to happen, it would become less necessary to enforce a draconian immigration policy and build a concrete barbed wire wall along the border.

Immigrants would still get jobs, but probably more from private industries that would pay anyone under the table anyway.

I know it's not a complete solution, but it's not part of the problem and it IS feasible. Our corporations have way too much power and too little accountablility because the politicians feed from the same trough.

[Blackmail]

The US administration are the ones doing the brainwashing, connecting everything to "terrorism" when they're terrorists themselves. I wasn't calling Ted a racist or a terrorist or a mesmer or anything crazy like that.

You have to target civillians/non combatants to be a terrorist. So since you don't even know the definition of terrorism you shouldn't be talking about brainwashing. If you don't think terrorism is a problem fine, but your wrong and almost everyone - liberals and conservatives - have raised the issue of terrorism as it relates to the borders.

Gonna try to segue back to the topic- Holding corporations accountable for their hiring practices would be easier and more fair that taking it out on the people that have shitty lives and sub-minimum wage income anyway. If that was to happen, it would become less necessary to enforce a draconian immigration policy and build a concrete barbed wire wall along the border.

The companies who hire illegals should be held accountable, true, but that does not justify illegally crossing the border. You also failed to adress the fact that in places with heavy illegal alien populations, those people are causing problems from crime to monetary damage. Sorry their lives are crappy, but that's for their governments to solve, not ours.

I know it's not a complete solution, but it's not part of the problem and it IS feasible. Our corporations have way too much power and too little accountablility because the politicians feed from the same trough.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's true but it doesn't justify illegally crossing the border.

Honestly, I think you're in over your head in this debate. Your whole argument seems to be "well they have crappy lives so they should be able to come here and improve their situation" which sounds nice but doesn't address legitemate security concerns (mohammed atta should have never been in this Country and perhaps 3,000 more Americans would be alive). It also doesn't adress the fact that illegals are commiting a disproportionate amount of violent crime in Southern California or the fact that illegals have suppressed wages for legit citizens.

I am guessing once The Dark sees this thread he might not be as nice to you as I've been, and I've not been that nice considering of your use of phrases "you're sounding racist".

[phee]

The US administration are the ones doing the brainwashing, connecting everything to "terrorism" when they're terrorists themselves.

kinda agree with this... but perhaps with not the same vibrato...

I wasn't calling Ted a racist or a terrorist or a mesmer or anything crazy like that.

Actually you said he sounded like a racist here:

There's crime everywhere, by everyone. Attributing the crime only to illegal immigrants and calling them simply "illegals" with no argument is starting to make you sound like a racist.

Just FYI

Gonna try to segue back to the topic- Holding corporations accountable for their hiring practices would be easier and more fair that taking it out on the people that have shitty lives and sub-minimum wage income anyway. If that was to happen, it would become less necessary to enforce a draconian immigration policy and build a concrete barbed wire wall along the border.

Coudn't agree more

I know it's not a complete solution, but it's not part of the problem and it IS feasible. Our corporations have way too much power and too little accountablility because the politicians feed from the same trough.

This is true... but the problem is a bit more complex then that.... it has almost become the norm at this point that corperations will find cheap labor somehow... and not just american ones... so the problem then is if only a few corperations are actually forced to be decent and reasonable businesses, then the ones who are being unfair and using cheap production/labor will then financially destroy the ones who are playing nice... and we are back to where we were.

[BrassFusion]

Get the fuck of the personal attacks. Now. The debate is NOT about what information I'm failing to provide for you OR what vocabulary words my tiny brain can't understand.

If there were fewer jobs there'd be fewer aliens.

And me saying you SOUND like a racist is much more objective than calling you one. Grow up.

[phee]

I agree enough with personal attacks... carry on

[Guest Megalicious]

Sorry their lives are crappy, but that's for their governments to solve, not ours.

That's true but it doesn't justify illegally crossing the border. 

Exactly. We have plenty of AMERICAN citizens here that lead crappy lives, we should take care of our own.

[Guest Megalicious]

The debate is NOT about what information I'm failing to provide for you

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe that is the very essence of a debate. If someone fails to provide information, with fact to back it up, it is no longer a debate, its just someone talking out of their ass.

[torn asunder]

Get the fuck of the personal attacks. Now. The debate is NOT about what information I'm failing to provide for you OR what vocabulary words my tiny brain can't understand.

If there were fewer jobs there'd be fewer aliens.

And me saying you SOUND like a racist is much more objective than calling you one. Grow up.

ok, first off - there is no need or room for cursing (get the fuck off...) in any intelligent debate. second, it's not your call to order people around. third, if you fail to provide information to back up your argument, yes, you've lost your argument - that's the entire basis of debate. also, just because you indirectly imply something doesn't mean it isn't obvious to everyone - you're calling someone a racist when you say they "sound like a racist". nitpicky semantics are an easy, cowardly way out of an argument, in my opinion. people are fully capable of divining the spirit and intent of a discussion. please do so, everyone. if people (anyone in this thread, not directed specifically at anyone) can't be civil, they should refrain from responding. period. there is plenty of room for intelligent debate, there is no room for things getting personal. i haven't seen one person personally attack brassfusion - what i have seen is people challenging and effectively disproving his/her points, and him/her getting frustrated by that.

now, to the point of the discussion - if you entered this country illegally, (i don't care what country you're from) you should be deported, end of story. i don't care if you've been here for years and you have a family... you don't have papers, you and your entire entourage go byebye. if you're in one of our penal facilities and we find you don't have any papers? extradite/deport - i shouldn't be feeding and housing someone who shouldn't be here in the first place. you want to be here? go through the proper channels like every other law-abiding citizen in this country has. you have no rights to anything america has to offer, if you refuse to obey its laws in the first place, and you definitely don't deserve the right to call yourself an american. again, my personal opinion. don't like it? tough...

[BrassFusion]

All I keep hearing is "shoulds." Like about who "should" be deported and who "should" receive monetary help from the government, but nothing about why Americans deserve to be Americans and Mexicans don't.

I gave Ted the chance to assert that he wasn't a racist, and explain his position. He chose not to dignify my somewhat incendiary statement with a response. Well. Other than a defensive one. Understandable.

Just because I don't agree with you all doesn't make me stupid or ignorant, and I'm not the only one here trying to argue. I'm not trying to pick a fight.

As for the validity of my statements, I can't back them up with figures because they're theoretical. I can't say that Wal*Mart being fined 20 million dollars has moved exactly 10,000 jobs from "illegals" to "citizens" because it HASN'T HAPPENED.

I tried doing it before, and I'm going to try it again. I'm not going to respond to Ted anymore, and Meg hasn't given me anything worth responding to anyway.

So Phee:

This is true... but the problem is a bit more complex then that.... it has almost become the norm at this point that corperations will find cheap labor somehow... and not just american ones... so the problem then is if only a few corperations are actually forced to be decent and reasonable businesses, then the ones who are being unfair and using cheap production/labor will then financially destroy the ones who are playing nice... and we are back to where we were.

It seems that the largest corporations would be the easiest ones to police, and once the smaller ones got too big for their britches from benefitting from illegal labors, they'd be policed as well.

To enforce that, I assume they could use whatever system is in place for auditing companies to make sure their tax information is fully reported. Like... how much they paid Jose Cuervo for his 60 hours per week, and what his SS number is.

[JaneDead]

All I keep hearing is "shoulds." Like about who "should" be deported and who "should" receive monetary help from the government, but nothing about why Americans deserve to be Americans and Mexicans don't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no one here said that americans deserve it and mexicans don't.

what everyone is saying is that americans are citizens (regardless of ethnic background) and illegal immigrants (regardless of ethnic background)... are not. so they ("illegals") do NOT deserve the rights that we ("citizens") do.

[Fierce Critter]

Am I a racist if I say any Fat Polish Blonde Chicks who came into this country by improper channels are ILLEGALS and should be deported?

I certainly don't think so. 'Cause I sincerely DO believe any Fat Polish Blonde Chicks who came into this country by improper channels boyhowdy sure 'nuff are ILLEGAL and oughtta get their Fat, Polish, Blonde Female butts back to Fapoblofland and do it the correct, LEGAL way, like my Drunken Polish Brunette Grandparents did in the early 1900's, one-at-a-time, when Gramps could afford to bring each one over at the rate of, oh, I believe it was 1 person every 3 years? INCLUDING his wife?

I am so sick to death of people drawing the race card over something that has ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING TO DO WITH FUCKING RACE AND HAS EVERYFUCKINGTHING TO DO WITH LAW.

Uh-oh. Totally discredited myself by swearing there. Neverfuckingmind. :grin

[BrassFusion]

Guys, if you're gonna flame me, reread it. I'm not calling it a race issue overall, just when he drew a parallel between illegal immigrant Mexicans and crime in LA.

Fucking sick of being misinterpreted.

[Guest Megalicious]

It really easy ...

    *

      Claim: “Illegal immigrants are law-abiding citizens”

False: First and foremost, by the very nature of illegal immigrants being in the country “illegally”, they are neither following nor abiding by US law. Also, illegal immigrants are increasingly using bogus or stolen Social Security numbers. The crime of Identity Fraud being affected by illegal immigrants has become a growing and sever problem. .”

    *

      Claim: “Illegal aliens are honest and contribute little to crime”

Misleading: Many are hard working. However, in Los Angeles, alone, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens. “A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal.”

Yah and trust me I know use to live in the east side of LA, Ive seen it with my own eyes . I grew up with it all around me, so dont tell me crime rates and illegal immigrants in Los Angeles have nothing to do with eachother.

    *

      Claim: “The claim that illegal immigrants drain US services is a myth”

False: From the L.A. Times and Rice University’s Professor Donald Huddle: “Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops but 29% are on welfare.” And as far back as 1997, according to Huddle, the cost of illegal immigration to the American taxpayer was a net (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay) $69 Billion.

It has turned into a 'mexican" thing, but not because any of us are racist here.. its the fact that the majorty of illegal aliens in this country are mexican, THAT IS a fact, and if the vast majorty of illegal aliens where German or French I would be talking about them to. I don't give a rats ass who your are or where you come from, your disrespecting the country and its laws the moment you come here "ILLEGALY" Period

Not to mention .....

    *

      Claim: “Illegal immigrants are being denied [their] civil rights”

False: Civil rights pertain ONLY to citizens. The Merriam-Webster online Dictionary defines civil-rights as: “The nonpolitical rights of a citizen; especially: the rights of personal liberty guaranteed to U.S. citizens by the 13th and 14th amendments to the Constitution and by acts of Congress.” If one is not a citizen of the country, civil rights do not apply.

So no I don't believe they have the same rights as me being an American Citzien.

[Blackmail]

I am sorry if I made any personal attacks (well I'm not really sorry but I'll go as far as to say I know it's against DGN rules so I violated the rules) however, I tend to do that when someone is accusing me of sounding like a racist.

The other problem is that I'm something of an elitist, I think I am the smartest person around here and I think anyone who disagrees with me is dumb. That may be a problem and I may be wrong to do that but you don't know how difficult it is to be as educated as me and you don't understand what it's like to be smarter than everybody else. It's a curse. I'm awesome and I feel I'm awesomer than most people. Sometimes I just sit around and think about how intellectualy superior I am to you humans.

Anyway getting back to the topic at hand:

I think this debate comes down to this - some people have empathy for Mexicans who live in a poor Country and cross the border to earn a wage to feed thier family. I feel bad for these people too. Some people have empathy for the Cubans who live under the dictatorship of Fidel Castro and understand why they risk their lives to travel on flimsy rafts to come to Miami to live a better life.

I think those are legit reasons to defend illegal immigration (though in the case of Cubans it isn't actually illegal if they touch American soil).

However it has caused problems for actual U.S. citizens.

- I feel (and some studies have backed up my belief) that Illegal immigrants have suppressed wages for unskilled labor.

- Also, I do feel the terrorism reason is a legit point. The 9/11 Commission found that if Border Patrol laws were enforced, 3,000 Americans might not be dead (and while it might be true that they did not come thru mexico, the point still holds). I can agree that the Bush administration plays the terrorism card a bit much, but terrorism is a real threat and I do feel border patrol is a serious concern. I think that everyone in the U.S. should be documented by a ID of some sort and this is done legally via Visas, Passports, Drivers livenses or Social Seciurity cards. I just don't think it's safe to have people roaming around that if they cause trouble there is almost no way to identify them.

- It seems that illegal aliens have commited a disproportionate amount of crime in the LA area. If there wasn't an illegal alien problem in Southern California it appears that there would be less of a crime problem. I would bet that many of these criminals never would have been allowed to enter the Country if they were stopped by Border Patrol.

So then how do we find a balance to to be humane to people who have nothing and are decent people just trying to feed their families and still tackling the problems I listed above?

-Well, I think the guest worker idea (by President Bush or all people) is a good first step. Company's would have to first attempt to hire Americans and if they couldn't find Americans they could then hire 'guest workers'.

-I am opposed to granting amnesty to Illegals because it rewards people who came here illegally and screws over the people who went thru the process the right way. So I would say they could get temporary citizenship and then would have a certain amount of time to move back to whatever Country they are from. Now, this is problematic because you would be splitting up families, I'm well aware of that. However there has to be some way to fix this. Perhaps they could try to obtain legal citizenship while on their temporary stay here and people with children born in the U.S. could get special considerations.

- There should be a special tax on guest workers. A small one, but it would be fair in my opinion to add a tax to make sure non-citizens were giving to the "system".

- If I were running the U.S. I would also put heavy, public pressure on Mexico and that joke of a man (Fox) to clean up the corruption and help the poor people of Mexico. They already sort of do with Cuba and Castro but Mexico is a mess too. And Haiti and parts of Jamaica. By the way, did you know there are alot of rich people in Mexico? They just don't have a middle class at all. They are one of the least progressive Countries in the Western Hemisphere.

I'm all for universal health care but that's another debate and how it applies to illegal aliens is another thorny/complicated issue.

- If a guest worker has shown that he/she is a good citizen, they should be given special consideration on becomming a full U.S. citizen.

-If all these new laws were put into place then after 2 years I would start really penalizing illegal aliens who did not comply with my list.

Vote Blackmail for President in '08 because I'm awesomer than the other choices.

[BrassFusion]

If guest workers are paid equal minimum wage, I agree with your post 100%.

See how EASY that was???

The other problem is that I'm something of an elitist, I think I am the smartest person around here and I think anyone who disagrees with me is dumb. That may be a problem and I may be wrong to do that but you don't know how difficult it is to be as educated as me and you don't understand what it's like to be smarter than everybody else. It's a curse. I'm awesome and I feel I'm awesomer than most people. Sometimes I just sit around and think about how intellectualy superior I am to you humans.

I know exactly how you feel...

Except I actually *AM* elite.

[The_Dark]

I would just like to say....

Are you sure your not being a twat in this conversation? I see a great deal of twat like behaviour.

Stop it.

[The_Dark]

More to the point of the thread...

To fix the current situation we need to look at the whole picture instead of little parts.

A. Enforcment.

At this time we do not have the man power or the proper protocals to enforce the law. We need to almost quadruple the standing force of Enforcement agents.

We also need to expand who can legally enforce immigration laws. As it stands, local police forces do not have the authority to do so.

B. Deportation

We need to stop the catch and release program. If an illegal is caught.. they need to be deported within 48 hours. Period.

C. Modernization of Current Laws.

Imigration has been a problem for some time. We have had to, in our past, close the borders to to the inability to absorb all that was comming in. We have also had to set quotas on immigration from certain countrys. The Irish are a good example.

The last thing I wasnt to address.... Civil Rights. I want everyone to go read the damn Constitution. NOW. You will find that the way it is worded.. EVERYONE.. I mean EVERYONE has the rights outlined in the constitution. No matter where your from or where your living.