The death Penelty

[sinmantyx]

Oops....never say that I won't admit my mistakes. I was going off second-hand info that I got from a co-worker during a conversation about the topic. (Me bad.)

I have overstated the correlation between the death penalty and increased murder rates (just as apparently death penalty proponants have overstated the correlation between the death penalty and decreased murder rates).

Apparently, the most likely outcome of a particular case study is that there is no statistical difference. In a minority of the cases studied by the Freakonomics author there was a statistical effect, a few show a decrease and one showed an increase.

Here is the link.

There is also some interesting discussion about the topic on that blog, much of which is similiar to our discussions.

[Scary Guy]

I can name a few not-very-bright people who wouldn't. Just to fight the man.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well you said it yourself, they're "not-very-bright"... So that would just be Darwinisim in action at that point. :D

[sinmantyx]

Well you said it yourself, they're "not-very-bright"...  So that would just be Darwinisim in action at that point. :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I often wonder what Darwin might say if he knew that his name was being used in this way. Why don't we use someone elses name like Kettlewell?

[Scary Guy]

I often wonder what Darwin might say if he knew that his name was being used in this way.  Why don't we use someone elses name like Kettlewell?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A rose by any other name....

[sinmantyx]

A rose by any other name....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*giggle*

You know though, we're all for this whole "Darwin" thing until we feel the cold bite of natural selection at the back of our own necks. Then we're all about altruism and smiles and puppy dogs.

[BrassFusion]

*giggle*

You know though, we're all for this whole "Darwin" thing until we feel the cold bite of natural selection at the back of our own necks.  Then we're all about altruism and smiles and puppy dogs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nail on the head, right there.

And Scary, I know you and I disagree about this, but stupidity in and of itself isn't reason enough to die, if you ask me.

[Scary Guy]

Nail on the head, right there.

And Scary, I know you and I disagree about this, but stupidity in and of itself isn't reason enough to die, if you ask me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right, we do disagree on that.

However you're right, as janitors have to come from somewhere.

Then again I know geniuses who can't even tie their own shoelaces. In a Darwinistic environment where everything wasn't safety labeled and "genius proofed" they'd probably get taken out as well (like Africa, or the lower East side of Detroit, partly related to the "book smarts |= street smarts" thing).

[sinmantyx]

It's like this: I'm glad it's not up to me who lives and dies. I know people who are extremely unintelligent, but are able to be happy and productive. I know people who are extremely intelligent, but do drugs all day and are completely miserable (but somehow remain arrogant).

An individual is more than they appear, and saying that being wrong about one little thing somehow makes them "deserve" to die because they "did it to themselves" is much too harsh for me. (I'm an overweight person with Diabetes in my family, perhaps someone should put a bullet in my head?)

Fate is too fickle to see the issue as black and white.

It's the classic case of the overly sexually active person dodging the bullet everytime and the careful person being extremely unlucky. It's not fair and there is very little we can do to prevent it, even though everyone wants to point the blame (perhaps simply so they can continue to live under the delusion that they have the power to create their own fate.)

You only have to be stupid or unlucky once to lose your own life or to contribute to the harm of others.

To bring this back to the topic. It's not for us to decide who deserves to live and who deserves to die. Natural Selection is a force of nature and it doesn't give a damn about our opinion. Survival traits are not neccesarily traits WE want to see in the people around us.

If you really care about Eugenics, it might be a good idea to convince the intelligencia to start having more babies.

[Scary Guy]

Unfortunately eurgenicsc is bullshit too since at that point it's not really all that natural of a selection anymore. Then again if god didn't want us to play god, he wouldn't have created us in his image.

Personally if I'm flying and the jet goes down, I'd rather be stuck with idiots who could build shelter and do manual labor than geniuses that couldn't start a fire without a lighter or matches (though they would make good backup food supplies at that point).

[sinmantyx]

Unfortunately eurgenicsc is bullshit too since at that point it's not really all that natural of a selection anymore.  Then again if god didn't want us to play god, he wouldn't have created us in his image.

Personally if I'm flying and the jet goes down, I'd rather be stuck with idiots who could build shelter and do manual labor than geniuses that couldn't start a fire without a lighter or matches (though they would make good backup food supplies at that point).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At least you're realistic about it.

[BrassFusion]

Unfortunately eurgenicsc is bullshit too since at that point it's not really all that natural of a selection anymore.  Then again if god didn't want us to play god, he wouldn't have created us in his image.

Personally if I'm flying and the jet goes down, I'd rather be stuck with idiots who could build shelter and do manual labor than geniuses that couldn't start a fire without a lighter or matches (though they would make good backup food supplies at that point).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You don't seem to know what a genius is. A high IQ can have more to do with solving problems in a particular scenario, like MacGyver, and that might prove useful in a survival situation.

I went to college to people that just memorized shit without understand it or being able to write a paper on it. They didn't really do too well, but that's a music program for you.

[phee]

You don't seem to know what a genius is. A high IQ can have more to do with solving problems in a particular scenario, like MacGyver, and that might prove useful in a survival situation.

I went to college to people that just memorized shit without understand it or being able to write a paper on it. They didn't really do too well, but that's a music program for you.

I agree with that.... I have a good deal of "Book learning" but Rayne is much "Smarter" then me IMO

[Scary Guy]

You don't seem to know what a genius is. A high IQ can have more to do with solving problems in a particular scenario, like MacGyver, and that might prove useful in a survival situation.

I went to college to people that just memorized shit without understand it or being able to write a paper on it. They didn't really do too well, but that's a music program for you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A high IQ is not genius, or at least shouldn't be the standard for genius. They now say EI is what it should be based off of. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence

Though there are many areas of genius. Mensa shouldn't be one of them as it's mostly a contest to constantly prove you're better than the other geniuses more than it is a social club.

[BrassFusion]

A high IQ is not genius, or at least shouldn't be the standard for genius.  They now say EI is what it should be based off of.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence

Though there are many areas of genius.  Mensa shouldn't be one of them as it's mostly a contest to constantly prove you're better than the other geniuses more than it is a social club.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't believe how fucked up my grammar was when I posted that. I'm gonna leave it for posterity.

Oh well. And yeah, high IQ = genius. There's no reason to give the word a new definition. Current IQ tests tend to rate according to the ability to recognize patterns and make connections. If that's not intelligence, what is? EI is just another one of those products of the consolation prize culture. "Well, you're not smart, but you're... bright! That's it, bright! You're an EMOTIONAL genius, and that makes you just as good as those smart people over there!"

I have a friend who's in Mensa and he tried to get me into it for a while. I just never cared. He seems to have a lot of fun at the functions.

[sinmantyx]

To bring this back to topic, do you think that it is moral to give the death penalty to those who do not have the cognitive ability to understand the world around them? This would include those with severe mental illness, developemental disabilities, and certain degenerative diseases.

I know someone in a nursing home my mother worked at when she was young tried to kill her. The person probably would have been successful if the person were more physically strong. However, I would tend to blame the administration of the nursing home more than the elderly woman (who had no idea of reality at all some of the time) who actually put her hands around my mother's neck, because it's that institution's responsibility to create as safe an environment as possible for the residents and the employees. (Which in this case, they were not.)

Also, these people would not have the capacity to understand consequences, so any possible deterent effect would be completely moot.

[BrassFusion]

To bring this back to topic, do you think that it is moral to give the death penalty to those who do not have the cognitive ability to understand the world around them?  This would include those with severe mental illness, developemental disabilities, and certain degenerative diseases.

I know someone in a nursing home my mother worked at when she was young tried to kill her.  The person probably would have been successful if the person were more physically strong.  However, I would tend to blame the administration of the nursing home more than the elderly woman (who had no idea of reality at all some of the time) who actually put her hands around my mother's neck, because it's that institution's responsibility to create as safe an environment as possible for the residents and the employees.  (Which in this case, they were not.)

Also, these people would not have the capacity to understand consequences, so any possible deterent effect would be completely moot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't feel the death penalty is moral in any case, so no.

But I don't see how you can blame that on the nursing home, unless the woman was known be demented and violent.

[sinmantyx]

I don't feel the death penalty is moral in any case, so no.

But I don't see how you can blame that on the nursing home, unless the woman was known be demented and violent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes. I would have to talk to my mom again to be certain, but that was my impression. Reguardless, it's the institutions responsiblility to find out. Sometimes people are put into nursing homes specifically because they are violent and are identified as such before even being admitted. Even if this were a complete surprise to everyone, the fact that nobody was there to help or supervise my mother is wreckless policy.

[Scary Guy]

Even though they can't be put to death if they don't know what they did, I'd say yes, they should be put to death. It's not like the ones who know what they did wrong are going to learn anything from this form of punishment anyway.

[BrassFusion]

I know it's only circumstancial evidence to support my opinion at best, but I found a website the other day that has a colorful map of the status of the death penalty's legality in a variety of countries. We're in pretty ghettoey company, with the notable exception of Japan, but... Japan's kinda nuts... :confused

[Scary Guy]

I know it's only circumstancial evidence to support my opinion at best, but I found a website the other day that has a colorful map of the status of the death penalty's legality in a variety of countries. We're in pretty ghettoey company, with the notable exception of Japan, but... Japan's kinda nuts...  :confused

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But that's why we love Japan

[sinmantyx]

Even though they can't be put to death if they don't know what they did, I'd say yes, they should be put to death.  It's not like the ones who know what they did wrong are going to learn anything from this form of punishment anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That attitude just scares me, probably because one of my friends had a serious bout with mental illness and prescription drug addiction. She went after her husband with a knife at one point. She lost blocks of time and has many manufactured memories. Even now she sometimes struggles with Post-tramatic Stress.

At the moment she is happily married (to a different man) and is an artist and bussiness owner.

I would have been more than upset if she had unknowingly committed a crime during that time. I would have also been more than upset if the state decided that the right thing to do at that point was to kill her instead of institutionalize her. She's a human being to me, not just someone who was dangerous for a short period of time in her life.

[BrassFusion]

I didn't think about that either... once my dad got cross-medicated while going through a career change. He got so stressed out he snapped, but instead of attacking anyone, he just got really religious in weird ways and asked me to shoot the dog.

He got all better after a few nights rest in the hospital and figuring out the meds, thankfully. And the dog's OK.

[sinmantyx]

I didn't think about that either... once my dad got cross-medicated while going through a career change. He got so stressed out he snapped, but instead of attacking anyone, he just got really religious in weird ways and asked me to shoot the dog.

He got all better after a few nights rest in the hospital and figuring out the meds, thankfully. And the dog's OK.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh wow..that must have been very frightening. I'm glad everything turned out ok.

That was part of my friend's problem. She would get one prescription from one doctor and a different one from another. Considering she was on VERY powerful drugs, this effected her in extreme ways.

I think we can make some parallels to the recent hearing on the post-partum depression case. We're just lucky enough that nothing that horrible ultimately happened with people close to us.

Then, there is the opposite problem. My sister-in-laws brother STOPPED taking his medication and burned down a house because his dead mother told him to. My thoughts is that he should be in a mental institution where they can assure that he takes his medication even when HE thinks he is feeling better. Instead, he winds up in jail because they don't have enough room. The way the mentally ill are treated in this country is just horrible.

[Jabberwok]

well, dont know if anybody has suggested this or not... but i had the idea of forcably and torturusly re-programming a convicted murderers' mind and mental state. or at least removing enough of their mind and memory, that they could be used as a cheep form of labor... for ied disposal. if i sound a bit too extreme just let me know.