The death Penelty

[Steven]

I'm for it. (the death penalty)

I know it makes me sound archaic.

I dont care.

I beleive in it's deterrent power - regardless of the statistics. And I doubt the statistics anyway because we've watered down the process with numerous appeals and sit people on their asses for years before we actually deliver the sentence.

I'm also for it as a form of justice.

no it does not erase the crime after its committed.

No it does not 'solve" the problem.

Nothing we do "solves' the problem.

But in some indiscriminate way - it offers balance.

[Steven]

I bought up the bible.  Why? Because for some (including a few on DGN) it is a second law to live by (or first law).

The Pope is opposed to the death penalty based on the catholic churches interpretation of scripture. 

Since I am a catholic,  scripture does play into my view on this topic.  I posed the question because there are a few Christians on DGN.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm a Christian who beleives in following his own lead in regard to what he feels is biblically sound and presented in decency and order. And I dont beleive in the neccesity of a man-made mediator between myself and god. No disrespect intended Ted. I just think the Pope and the papacy in and of itself is not biblical, nor was it modeled by Christ or the early church of Peter and Paul's day, nor do I trust it for that matter.

So despite the feelings of a welll intentioned man (and just a man, a sinner just like myself despite his flowing robes and tremendous authority) - I'm for the death penalty and have no fear of taking my convictions before the throne of god all by myself.

[Steven]

More specifically, "Judge not, lest ye be judged" seems to condemn hypocrites.

And the Bible says it's okay to kill a WHOLE lot of people that it's no longer okay to kill by modern society's standards. Like most debates, this one would probably be better if we didn't quote the unreliable sources.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good insight on the hypocritical observation - I agree with you here. And all men (and women) judge, let's be real here.

I beleive your off on the Bible saying its "OK" to kill alll kinds of people.

Context my dear. Your reading historical narratives surrounding specific people and warring nations - not to mention the influence of a supposed abomination called Nephilim - with a clear cut goal in mind. I'm not justifying it - I'm simply saying that its not as simple as you suggest in terms of what the bible "says" to the everyday modern reader. Thats sort of like saying it's ok to have slaves because the history books of our nations showed that we did that here in AMerica.

As for unreliable sources....not sure specifically what your aluding to here...but let's try to remember that many of us still beleive that the bible is indeed reliable, and therefore might take a bit of offense to that last comment, unless of course I'm reading you wrong.

[phee]

Deterant? *Phee repeats*

Jesus Christ?

[Steven]

Source reliability isn't all that subjective. You have to look at whether the author(s) of said source were biased, how recent the source is, if it uses numerical data, if it quotes other reliable sources, et cetera. The Bible is not reliable. Sorry.

And since it sounded like you were defending the Old Testament as opposed to the New, I didn't automatically assume you were Christian. Have you considered Judaism?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this too is a matter of opinion.

and a bit of research can lead one to see that the biblical texts defiantely cut the mustard in terms of reliability, especially in comparison to so many other old texts (for example, let's say copies of the writings of Plato) that are researched in a similar manner.

[Steven]

Brassfusion... really... you have no idea what my religion is...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

She comes off a bit snotty this girl does. Wish she didint - I can tell she's a thinker and is probably very bright.

[Steven]

Deterant? *Phee repeats*

Jesus Christ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Brutha....this one flew right over my head.....

[BrassFusion]

A few posts back I justified why I called it "unreliable." Most of the really bad stuff in the Bible is in the Old Testament, sure, but because all of that's included, I'm willing to throw out the whole source as something that should be taken as a direction on how to life a fair and happy life.

I also don't feel it's worth basing any arguments on, because it's not quantitative and it's impossible to prove that every edict in there is divinely inspired. If you're like me, of course, you don't even BELIEVE in divine inspiration.

You get away with calling me "dear..." This time...

But back to the death penalty!!!

Steve, you said you don't believe there's a need for a mediator between you and God. That would be the judge who condemns a violent criminal to die, in the opinion of a lot of people. Why do you support the death penalty, as opposed to letting violent criminals live in prison?

[BrassFusion]

She comes off a bit snotty this girl does.  Wish she didint - I can tell she's a thinker and is probably very bright.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And thanks. I'll accept the compliment in the spirit it was offered.

You'd be just as snotty, if you could get away with it.

[The_Dark]

In a Christian mind the Judge doesn't pass sentance. The Judge determines if a crime did in fact take place... if the person is found to have commited murder.. then the sentance is death.. as prescribed by God as God has already judged murder to be bad.

[creatureofthenyte]

I am in support of the Death Penalty. I do not believe religious beliefs should come into the decision of for or against the Death Penalty. Myself personally, I think with my own mind and I do not let religion tell me or influence me on how I should think, feel, or believe about something.

Having said that, I believe that if Bin Laden is ever caught, he should be executed via the electric chair, and it should be broadcasted on live tv on CNN as a message to the world to show what happens to someone who does the things he's done. That would be the only fair and just punishment for him.

[Guest Megalicious]

She comes off a bit snotty this girl does.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't call it snotty, but then again your alot nice then myself Steven.

AND JAROD JUST STOLE MY FUCKING PILLOWS! He deserves the DP, he always steals them .. when HE KNOWS I can't stand for the pillows to be uneven on our bed!!!!

[torn asunder]

he deserves the DP for stealing pillows!? :blink

i didn't even know he swings that way!?!? :woot:

:laughing :whistling :fear

[DarkVampire]

Let the punishment fit the crime.

[Guest Megalicious]

he deserves the DP for stealing pillows!?  :blink

i didn't even know he swings that way!?!?  :woot:

:laughing    :whistling  :fear

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

THEY ARE UNEVEN!! THERE ARE ONLY 5 PILLOWS ON THE BED!!!! ... He knows I can't have that, it bothers me. (Just a bit of OCD)

[BrassFusion]

I wouldn't call it snotty, but then again your alot nice then myself Steven.

AND JAROD JUST STOLE MY FUCKING PILLOWS! He deserves the DP, he always steals them .. when HE KNOWS I can't stand for the pillows to be uneven on our bed!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you don't like me, put me on ignore and don't jack threads about how much of a bitch I am and ocd pillows and shit. I can take it from Steven because he has an iota of respect for me (it would seem); but I don't need shit from you.

[Steven]

If you don't like me, put me on ignore and don't jack threads about how much of a bitch I am and ocd pillows and shit. I can take it from Steven because he has an iota of respect for me (it would seem); but I don't need shit from you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no no no....I actually have more than just an iota of respect for you.

.....just trying to tell you something Brass.....that's all.

(I hate to see a sound mind lose it's social impact due to pride)

[Steven]

And thanks. I'll accept the compliment in the spirit it was offered.

You'd be just as snotty, if you could get away with it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well........sometimes I try.

[BrassFusion]

well........sometimes I try.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*hi-5*

[Guest Megalicious]

If you don't like me, put me on ignore and don't jack threads about how much of a bitch I am and ocd pillows and shit. I can take it from Steven because he has an iota of respect for me (it would seem); but I don't need shit from you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:Ignores the troll: :brushes dirt off of sholder: :whistling

[Steven]

A few posts back I justified why I called it "unreliable." Most of the really bad stuff in the Bible is in the Old Testament, sure, but because all of that's included, I'm willing to throw out the whole source as something that should be taken as a direction on how to life a fair and happy life.

I also don't feel it's worth basing any arguments on, because it's not quantitative and it's impossible to prove that every edict in there is divinely inspired. If you're like me, of course, you don't even BELIEVE in divine inspiration.

You get away with calling me "dear..." This time...

But back to the death penalty!!!

Steve, you said you don't believe there's a need for a mediator between you and God. That would be the judge who condemns a violent criminal to die, in the opinion of a lot of people. Why do you support the death penalty, as opposed to letting violent criminals live in prison?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good question Dear. What I meant was in referacne to The Pope - in other words i dont need another flawed man such as myself setting the rules for me in regard to what is divine, or authoritive, or required in terms of my decision making.

In english: I dont give a shit what the Pope says. And I worhsip the smae God he does.

I'll have to go back to your old posts and do some homework so that I have a better feel for your positions.

As for the Bible being quantitive.....that's really (really) hard for me to grasp at - but that's because I've studied it for many years and see complete correlation between both testaments and many astounding parralels. not going to try to prove it however - thats a hopeless cause that makes fools of men.

As for all of it being divinely inspired - I see yrou point but I disagree. But then again I beleive in an omnicient God. And I beleive we dismiss the muse behind biblical writings while embracing the muse behind other less divisive works of art and literature, things that offend much less and do not point toward absolutes. To me the bible is what it is - a gathering of historical data, poetry and songs, Life lessons, Parables, prophetical books, and latter day letters to developing churches trying to find their way after Christ was killed. I beleive the muse behind it all was indeed God - and yet within it you see the influence of man as the writing instrument, reflecting the times, values, culture and stuggles of the authors of each peice. To me its very simple. It's no different than my beleif that God lessened himself for a short period of time to walk the earth as a man - physically and emotionally vulnerable and yet powerful and authoritive in the man called Yeshuah.

And then finnally - in regard to the bible being a valuable resource to draw from in order to live a balanced happy life......well.......again I beleive it is indeed valuable and applies to the modern era. Everything I am, say, do, think, feel and express is biblically founded, from the minute my toes hit the floor in the morning to my relationships during the day to my work performance to my forays on the stage with my band to the relationship with my wife and hopefully to my communication with you all.

A perfect man I'm not.

A real man I am.

A failed man I was. Before this Bible thing took over......

[BrassFusion]

By quantitative, I meant data based on numbers. Objectivity. Math. Logic. Honestly, I don't deal with the subjective really well. Maybe it's because I don't trust myself to make judgments that aren't based in black and white fairness.

In response to your omniscient God, I am forced to disagree that the Bible is wholly divinely inspired. According to your beliefs (I presume), God inspires everyone but gives them the benefit of free will. The difference between prophets and garden-variety agnostic artists like myself is that the agnostics don't label themselves as prophets and aren't recognized by King James and his ilk as having something valuable to contribute. Just like the Pope, I don't think KJ had ANY direct line to God- and yet he got veto power over what's accepted as the modern Bible.

As for the Bible being a guiding light for you, it seems to be doing its job. More power to you... but I don't think it should ever be used as a law over any group of people.

...Poopsiekins.

[Steven]

By quantitative, I meant data based on numbers. Objectivity. Math. Logic. Honestly, I don't deal with the subjective really well. Maybe it's because I don't trust myself to make judgments that aren't based in black and white fairness.

In response to your omniscient God, I am forced to disagree that the Bible is wholly divinely inspired. According to your beliefs (I presume), God inspires everyone but gives them the benefit of free will. The difference between prophets and garden-variety agnostic artists like myself is that the agnostics don't label themselves as prophets and aren't recognized by King James and his ilk as having something valuable to contribute. Just like the Pope, I don't think KJ had ANY direct line to God- and yet he got veto power over what's accepted as the modern Bible.

As for the Bible being a guiding light for you, it seems to be doing its job. More power to you... but I don't think it should ever be used as a law over any group of people.

...Poopsiekins.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I dont think it should be used as a law either. thats not its intention. You might want to research what Christ himself said about "the law" for clarification, he too - saw the hypocricy and worhtless relgiosity of the ordained powers that be. All of the above values systems you cling to can indeed be found with tremendous consistency in the text. It wont do me much good (and I dont mean to sound condescending because thats not my intention) to say I used to feel like you do about the bible, but I did.

As for the prophets - remember they were persecuted and killed by their own people, the kings and governors hated them and often hunted them, their lives were often full of hardships, to include christ's. They were never publically recognized with praise - they were instead dreaded and feared, which further isolated them. Tough gig. Dont pay well either. Good way to get killed. You seem to beleive that the prophets were self elevated and reveared in some way. Not true. neither were the Apostles. I think they were very lonely people. But if you are a prophet - your a prophet - its what you are. Its sort of like me saying that I'm a singer and a writer. I'm not famous, yet its who I am and what I do. I dont really have a choice.....its sort of spills out of me. Doesent matter if I'm any good at it - thats subjective anyway - I just recognize my call and step out with it.

By the way King James did not have absolute control over what was cannonized. About 300 people did. But regardless of how it was cannonized - I look into the source itself - the text and I test it there. Does it apply to my life? Is there evidence of it's working? Not only in my life, does it work in the lives of those i respect? I look for everyday evidence - how they live - is it exemplified consistently? Thats the acid test. I do respect your position however.

[phee]

Let the punishment fit the crime.

So by this line of reasoning the over 100 or so people (arguably) that have been murdered by the government (by accident :blink ) the government we pay tax money to.. who should be killed to fit the crime?

.

[Guest Megalicious]

So by this line of reasoning the over 100 or so people (arguably) that have been murdered by the government (by accident :blink ) the government we pay tax money to.. who should be killed to fit the crime?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Iif it is a crime to kill, then who is be held acountable for the innocent that are dead?

Good point Phee.