The death Penelty

[Steven]

wish it was a perfect system, but its not.

sounds like a whitewash I know. It aint.

I'm leaning more toward the innocent victims and the devestaton that they are left with. I think the greater numbers lay there.

[phee]

Exactly Meg... and we can't really call it an accident... An accident is when say, you accidently kill someone by dropping a brick from a high wall when repairing it.... I believe that when these people were shot for $1.38 or strapped down and injected with poison... I think that harm was intended... If I went out and shot the guy who I was "sure" raped and killed my daughter, killing him... then later they found out that I killed the wrong guy... what... would I owe a fine to the family? an apology? No I would be tried for murder... AND I WOULD DESERVE IT... you fill in the rest as far as relevence

Oh and when Christ was executed it actually I believe did not really do much to defer people from committing the "Crime" of Christianity....

[Guest Megalicious]

I'm leaning more toward the innocent victims and the devestaton that they are left with.  I think the greater numbers lay there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But thats the thing Steven, the fact that the murder/rapist has been killed does'nt do anything but bring more devestation .. to more families, and though it may feel good to the victims family members/spouse ect at the moment , Imagine how they would feel, the gulit, the anger if they had learned they had killed someone who was inoccent. What kind of horrible emotional damage would that do? No to mention the long term effects of always feeling that anger. Murder doesn't solve anything, it only brings more pain, devestation and victims. You can not move forward if you are consently running in circles, You know what I mean?

[phee]

But thats the thing Steven, the fact that the murder/rapist has been killed does'nt do anything but bring more devestation .. to more families, and though it may feel good to the victims family members/spouse ect at the moment , Imagine how they would feel, the gulit, the anger if they had learned they had killed someone who was inoccent. What kind of horrible emotional damage would that do? No to mention the long term effects of  always feeling that anger. Murder doesn't solve anything, it only brings more pain, devestation and victims.

That is the paradox of the death penelty

[BrassFusion]

That is the paradox of the death penelty

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does anyone have alternatives that address the same supposed pros as the death penalty, i.e. affordability (debatable), deterrence (also debatable), and vengeance (not at all debatable but not a "pro" if you ask me, anyway...)?

Even theoretical, to get the topic to some new ground.

Let's talk about brainwashing, a la "A Clockwork Orange." Could this possibly work? Would potential risks outweigh the positive outcomes?

1. Affordability- Testing could be very expensive, but once streamlined, could be much, much cheaper than any other alternative.

2. Crime deterrant- Pretty much none at all, and I guess that would be a major drawback. People might start committing crimes because they think even if they did get caught, they'd get "instant rehabilitation" on the state's dime and, even if there were negative lasting effects, not realize it...

3. Vengeance- Also, none at all. Unless (and this goes for points 2 and 3), something were built into the brainwashing to hobble the criminal and make his life almost unlivably miserable (which would be cruel and unusual), or handicap him in some lasting way.

OK maybe this is just diarrhea of the keyboard, but I'm curious if anybody's thinking of something completely revolutionary here- alternatives.

[DJ Nocker]

Well I have a different kind of opinion....Im a Anarchist/Nihilist. So people can do whatever the hell they want, but they should also know someone some where wont agree and want payback.

So in the case of the death penalty, I believe if someone kills someone, its fine, but If someone isnt happy about it, then that person better do something about it, not the government. So...I guess I believe in "eye for an eye" more so than death penalty? Its kinda hard to describe.

[Soulrev]

I haven't read anything except for the initial post. I won't read the rest of this thread at all. I don't care.

My view is simple. Eliminate the death penalty. It's too easy. I say lock em up till they die. Don't get me started on our prison system either. If it were my system, inmates would have the comforts of stone floors and straw beds, shackles, gruel for breakfast lunch and dinner, and I'd keep a gimp to torture the worst ones. Pulp Fiction style.

That is all.

[phee]

I haven't read anything except for the initial post. I won't read the rest of this thread at all. I don't care.

My view is simple. Eliminate the death penalty. It's too easy. I say lock em up till they die. Don't get me started on our prison system either. If it were my system, inmates would have the comforts of stone floors and straw beds, shackles, gruel for breakfast lunch and dinner, and I'd keep a gimp to torture the worst ones. Pulp Fiction style.

That is all.

heh

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

And the innocent people who have died?

Or is this considered an acceptable loss? kinda like a war....

Is it acceptable until a loved one is killed innocently? Would you still be for the death penalty?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who is innocent and why should I care?

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

But it happens.... and you more or less said that "innocent people die all the time" and you never know... (heart strings are real....)

And not only that... but your tax dollars (and mine) went to having her killed...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its rare that someone "good" gets executed by mistake. Most often, it is some crapball that is mistaken for someother crapball.

Im still not finding myself able to care about this subject at all.

[Msterbeau]

I was put to death once. It was great.

[Fierce Critter]

I toss this one around now and again, and I'm usually for.

But if it were up to me, it would require some kind of absolute proof. More than one eyewitness. DNA proof. Something like that.

Never in the case of circumstantial evidence. NEVER.

[Blackmail]

I'm a Christian who beleives in following his own lead in regard to what he feels is biblically sound and presented in decency and order.  And I dont beleive in the neccesity of a man-made mediator between myself and god.  No disrespect intended Ted.  I just think the Pope and the papacy in and of itself is not biblical, nor was it modeled by Christ or the early church of Peter and Paul's day, nor do I trust it for that matter.

So despite the feelings of a welll intentioned man (and just a man, a sinner just like myself despite his flowing robes and tremendous authority)  - I'm for the death penalty and have no fear of taking my convictions before the throne of god all by myself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now I have to respond to that.

While the Pope is indeed just a man, Peter was just a man as well, and Peter is considered by Catholics to be the first Pope. You know Jesus singled Peter out specifically.

"... you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church.... I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" - Jesus Christ

[Blackmail]

Its rare that someone "good" gets executed by mistake.  Most often, it is some crapball that is mistaken for someother crapball. 

Im still not finding myself able to care about this subject at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, which is why I don't find the whole "you might execute an innocent" very compelling. Has it happened ever? Well the wrong person certainly has been killed by the state but in the 3 cases I can think of the person on trial overturned by DNA weren't innocent either - just not guilty. Put it this way, the odds of a good, clean, innocent person being executed is .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

000000000000000000000000000000000001 %

[Blackmail]

One more point, I brought up religion, however I never said it should be an influence on this topic in regards to law, I was posing a question to the Christians here. That is all, no more, no less.

What Would Jesus Do?

I just can't see him executing people, no matter what they've done. But I could be wrong.

[The_Dark]

whats was that about the first stone?

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

whats was that about the first stone?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well... with the first stone, it is much easier to see what damage you did as opposed to thowing a stone at a bloody mess (assuming you are pretty far back in the line of stone throwers)

[The_Dark]

Oh right....

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

Does anyone have alternatives that address the same supposed pros as the death penalty, i.e. affordability (debatable), deterrence (also debatable), and vengeance (not at all debatable but not a "pro" if you ask me, anyway...)?

Even theoretical, to get the topic to some new ground.

Let's talk about brainwashing, a la "A Clockwork Orange." Could this possibly work? Would potential risks outweigh the positive outcomes?

1. Affordability- Testing could be very expensive, but once streamlined, could be much, much cheaper than any other alternative.

2. Crime deterrant- Pretty much none at all, and I guess that would be a major drawback. People might start committing crimes because they think even if they did get caught, they'd get "instant rehabilitation" on the state's dime and, even if there were negative lasting effects, not realize it...

3. Vengeance- Also, none at all. Unless (and this goes for points 2 and 3), something were built into the brainwashing to hobble the criminal and make his life almost unlivably miserable (which would be cruel and unusual), or handicap him in some lasting way.

OK maybe this is just diarrhea of the keyboard, but I'm curious if anybody's thinking of something completely revolutionary here- alternatives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i would not call it diarrhea of the keyboard, but a couple of points with A Clockwork Orange. 1. Alex was never brainwashed. He was subjected to Pavlovian conditioning. This did not change his ideas of right and wrong or change his mind so that he could not formulate plans to do "bad stuff", rather it just made him throw up whenever he thought about doing those things...

2. Burgess wrote his book to have a different ending than we got here in the usa... to cut to the chase, he implies that Alex and the droogs would quit being bad once they grew up and wanted adult lives (rather than living in a persistant state of id self). THis is hard to pick up in the movie since Alex was played by a 30 year old... in the book he was 14 or 15.

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

sorry for the moment of clarity. I promise I will go back to calling people Fuckfaces and shitstains as soon as I can.

For god sakes nobody mistake me for someone who went to college.

[The_Dark]

Just as an FYI...

I'll join the revalution and start shooting anyone that trys to make "conditioning" a way of life. I'm sorry.. but thats more 1984 than anything the Bush administration has come up with....

[BrassFusion]

Probably so. But once we have the technology, someone'll start abusing it.

[The_Dark]

Most likely some damn hippie liberal who doesn't see just how bad mind control really is.

[BrassFusion]

Must be.

[Steven]

One more point, I brought up religion, however I never said it should be an influence on this topic in regards to law, I was posing a question to the Christians here.  That is all, no more, no less. 

What Would Jesus Do?

I just can't see him executing people, no matter what they've done.  But I could be wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hmmmmm......I can.

But I dont see Jesus as just the mortal Son Of Man.

I also see him as the alpha and omega in Revelations, and the one who also returns to wage war.

It's a multifaceted personality, with multiple purposes that present themselves in due time.