The death Penelty

[BrassFusion]

The stuff in Rev. about Jesus returning to BRING WAR TO THE ENEMIES OF THE FAITH seems to go into hoobidy-joobidy cultland. I don't give it as much credit as I do the rest of the scripture, and obviously, I don't give that as much as a lot of people.

[Steven]

Oh and when Christ was executed it actually I believe did not really do much to defer people from committing the "Crime" of Christianity....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hmmmm.....interesting point. I'll have to give that some serious thought. Bear in mind however Phee that the Crime of Christianity had mass appeal due to it's ability to liberate the religiously tormented from the Judeo powers that be.....that's heavy stuff given the times and place....

back to topic...

I do beleive Phee, that one of the reasons we have no real deterrents is because we do not deter in general anymore.

Prisoners rape the system itself.

Appeal after appeal, red tape for years, millions of dolalrs (yours and mine thank you) spent educating, feeding, clothing, and providing health care for them (how many americans do you know that DONT have health care?).

Beyond all of that - criminals by and large - and were talking career criminals, those who's live's have held a basic pattern for many years....are fucking predators. You will actually rehabilitate very very few, and most of them are playing you. I have these types of people in my family. I grew up with these types of people. All the social studies in the world don't add up to what is seen from the inside. And once they reach a certain point of desensitization, a predator is just a predator. They do exist. They do get pleasure from causing you harm. And they do NOT care.

I'd put a bullet in every one of them if I could.

[BrassFusion]

Steven- even if they're sadist assholes who will never be rehabilitated, don't they still deserve the opportunity to have a painful, boring imprisoned life to do with what they're able? It seems humane to me- I'm the sort of person who thinks it's unlikely that there's an afterlife. So I see no reason to take everything away from someone, no matter how evil they are.

[Steven]

But thats the thing Steven, the fact that the murder/rapist has been killed does'nt do anything but bring more devestation .. to more families, and though it may feel good to the victims family members/spouse ect at the moment , Imagine how they would feel, the gulit, the anger if they had learned they had killed someone who was inoccent. What kind of horrible emotional damage would that do? No to mention the long term effects of  always feeling that anger. Murder doesn't solve anything, it only brings more pain, devestation and victims. You can not move forward if you are consently running in circles, You know what I mean?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do, to a degree, but I dont see any real alternatives, and I beleive that our compromised justice system has much to do with it. I see this as sort of like warefare.....it is a terrible tragedy and reality that innocent lives are lost, and mistakes are made that kill even more in times of friendly fire.

But this is war. Perhaps we never should have gotten to that place at all.

Mistakes are made in the system Meg, you are correct.

And tragedy is circular, you are correct.

But there is also closure, and justice.

There are those Meg - on the receiving end of the crime committed, who'd disagree with you.

[BrassFusion]

I dont see any real alternatives....

Life in prison! It works for a lot of states.

[Steven]

Steven- even if they're sadist assholes who will never be rehabilitated, don't they still deserve the opportunity to have a painful, boring imprisoned life to do with what they're able? It seems humane to me- I'm the sort of person who thinks it's unlikely that there's an afterlife. So I see no reason to take everything away from someone, no matter how evil they are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A) if you've ever been involved in a violent crime you might think differently. I have seen things that have hardened my point of view. It will never change.

B) then why dont we come up with a VOLUNTARY social welfare system where those who oppose the dealth penalty are willing to foot the bill for the rest of these inmates lives, because I dont want to pay for it. I can barely cover my own expenses.

C) In my view, a predator gives up his rights, as he has destroyed the rights of his victims. I see no reason to allow a willful life taker or devestator to continue to breath my air, drink my water, eat my food, read my books, watch my color tv, and receive my health care while he waits to get out on parole and hurt someone again. Once is too much for me. ANd it happens way more than once. Especially with kiddie crime offendors.

[Steven]

Life in prison! It works for a lot of states.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

fuck that.

[BrassFusion]

Potatoes and water are cheap. Lawyers are not.

[Steven]

Potatoes and water are cheap. Lawyers are not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

they get all three in prison.

[BrassFusion]

It takes more legal manpower to force a death sentence through than to feed a prisoner on potatoes and water.

[Steven]

It takes more legal manpower to force a death sentence through than to feed a prisoner on potatoes and water.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and there lies the problem. If a prisoner is sentenced to death, finish it that month. I dont beleive in maintaining a career criminal's civil rights, I beleive in taking from the criminal what he took from the victim.

by the way, prisoners don't live on potatoes and water, they get three squares a day.

[phee]

and there lies the problem.  If a prisoner is sentenced to death, finish it that month.  I dont beleive in maintaining a career criminal's civil rights, I beleive in taking from the criminal what he took from the victim.

by the way, prisoners don't live on potatoes and water, they get three squares a day.

But by increasing the speed in which someone is murdered by the government... isn't it more likely that the government will murder the wrong person?

[Blackmail]

But by increasing the speed in which someone is murdered by the government... isn't it more likely that the government will murder the wrong person?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You keep mentioning the innocent person angle. That is not why I am opposed to the death penalty. However, a proponent of the death penalty could say they would only execute someone if they had indisputable evidence such as more than one eyewitness and DNA evidence. If more than one person saw you do it, if the victims blood is all over your socks and seat cushions then it's gonna be hard to execute the wrong person.

[phee]

You keep mentioning the innocent person angle.  That is not why I am opposed to the death penalty.  However, a proponent of the death penalty could say they would only execute someone if they had indisputable evidence such as more than one eyewitness and DNA evidence.  If more than one person saw you do it, if the victims blood is all over your socks and seat cushions then it's gonna be hard to execute the wrong person.

If that is the case yes...

But witnesses lie, and evidence can be falsified.... and you can't take back a dead person

[Steven]

But by increasing the speed in which someone is murdered by the government... isn't it more likely that the government will murder the wrong person?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dude, please.

In a great many cases the evidence is perfectly sound and legitimite. No nothing is 100% shure but then agian neither is anything in life that we experience. We have a justice system that was originally designed to do the best it could with the smallest margin of error.

Obviously when the evidence is overwhelming that is where you would move quickly and stop taxing me to feed a predator.

If there are gray areas then fine, let said person sit.

You guys seem to forget that my arguments primarily surround that of the career criminal. That is why I've used the term of Predator.

[phee]

Dude, please.

In a great many cases the evidence is perfectly sound and legitimite.  No nothing is 100% shure but then agian neither is anything in life that we experience.  We have a justice system that was originally designed to do the best it could with the smallest margin of error. 

Obviously when the evidence is overwhelming that is where you would move quickly and stop taxing me to feed a predator.

If there are gray areas then fine, let said person sit.

You guys seem to forget that my arguments primarily surround that of the career criminal.  That is why I've used the term of Predator.

What if it seems black and white then a week after the person is killed, they find out that oops this person lied? What should be done? The Witness who lied put to death?

[BrassFusion]

And what if the criminal is insane?

[phee]

And what if the criminal is insane?

Leave my ex girlfriends out of this!!!!

[The_Dark]

That would depend. Our laws cover insanity pretty well as a defense. Being insane does not excuse your actions. You can be insane and still understand the differance between "right and wrong".

lets us an example.

Bob Wanger

Bob thinks he's a 7 foot tall talking penis. Bob walks into a mcDonalds and kills everyone with a dbl headed dildo. Bob knows what he is doing is wrong.. but his pocket pussy told him to do it. So he did.

Bob is going to prison or the chair depending on what State he is in. Why? He understood that beating people to death with a dildo is wrong but did it anyway.

[BrassFusion]

Bob probably doesn't understand things like right and wrong or human pain as deeply as people who don't think they're 7 foot tall talking penises. Penii?

Hell, I don't even have a full grasp on right and wrong. I think they're pretty subjective. I have human empathy, though.

Some people are sociopaths- they will never feel empathy from hurting another person. Perhaps many of them think they are the only human being in the world surrounded by robots that exist only in their mind. A great deal of people act like that, and aren't classically "insane."

That level of sociopathy- that of a murderer or other violent criminal- I see as a disability of sorts. I wasn't born with the inclination to do that sort of thing, but they were, so it's harder for them to not be violent. I don't think they deserve to die for how they were born and raised.

[Steven]

What if it seems black and white then a week after the person is killed, they find out that oops this person lied? What should be done? The Witness who lied put to death?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

isint that what a jury of peers is for? It worked for that head choppin offer OJ.

and is that not what defense attorneys are for? They are skilled specialists at either introducing hard facts, or introducing credible doubt.

you keep asking for 100%.

I understand that need - but it does not exist.

[Steven]

That would depend. Our laws cover insanity pretty well as a defense. Being insane does not excuse your actions. You can be insane and still understand the differance between "right and wrong".

lets us an example.

Bob Wanger

Bob thinks he's a 7 foot tall talking penis. Bob walks into a mcDonalds and kills everyone with a dbl headed dildo. Bob knows what he is doing is wrong.. but his pocket pussy told him to do it. So he did.

Bob is going to prison or the chair depending on what State he is in. Why? He understood that beating people to death with a dildo is wrong but did it anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

a little more colorful an example than I would have used but in general....what he said.

[Steven]

Bob probably doesn't understand things like right and wrong or human pain as deeply as people who don't think they're 7 foot tall talking penises. Penii?

Hell, I don't even have a full grasp on right and wrong. I think they're pretty subjective. I have human empathy, though.

Some people are sociopaths- they will never feel empathy from hurting another person. Perhaps many of them think they are the only human being in the world surrounded by robots that exist only in their mind. A great deal of people act like that, and aren't classically "insane."

That level of sociopathy- that of a murderer or other violent criminal- I see as a disability of sorts. I wasn't born with the inclination to do that sort of thing, but they were, so it's harder for them to not be violent. I don't think they deserve to die for how they were born and raised.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Remember my suggestion that you anti-death penalty peeps can therefore choose to pay up to house, feed, clothe, and educate ????

go for it.

But I can't afford it and I dont agree with it.

Incidently the born and raised thing - let's take insanity out of the question for a moment - all of us are created in disfunction. some of us have hardcore backgrounds and terrible personal tragedies. But we also have responsibilities and must answer to the majority.....

hey you majority.....howz about y'all give us minorities a break and cut us loose from having to fund this mess?

[phee]

isint that what a jury of peers is for?  It worked for that head choppin offer OJ.

and is that not what defense attorneys are for?  They are skilled specialists at either introducing hard facts, or introducing credible doubt.

you keep asking for 100%.

I understand that need - but it does not exist.

And that is one of my main arguments against the death penalty.... you summed it up pretty well...

[Steven]

And that is one of my main arguments against the death penalty.... you summed it up pretty well

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

interesting how we can see the same problem and yet be so polarized in our positions. i wish you well Phee. But ya better nto sneak into my house in the middle of the night to go pee cause you know......I'd have to shoot ya