The death Penelty

[phee]

We shouldn't be making people 100% dead, without a 100% system... in prison at least they can be released and given an apologetic amount of money and continue to live a life after the correction... as opposed to being killed by taxpayers money.

[Steven]

We shouldn't be making people 100% dead, without a 100% system... in prison at least they can be released and given an apologetic amount of money and continue to live a life after the correction... as opposed to being killed by taxpayers money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

of course I disagree with you.

But not 100% of the time.

[BrassFusion]

Remember my suggestion that you anti-death penalty peeps can therefore choose to pay up to house, feed, clothe, and educate ????

go for it. 

But I can't afford it and I dont agree with it.

Incidently the born and raised thing - let's take insanity out of the question for a moment - all of us are created in disfunction.  some of us have hardcore backgrounds and terrible personal tragedies.  But we also have responsibilities and must answer to the majority.....

hey you majority.....howz about y'all give us minorities a break and cut us loose from having to fund this mess?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is just the sort of thing that can never be about money- that way lies madness.

In my opinion.

[The_Dark]

I just want to respond to something that Brassfusion said about being born....

Everyone is born with the capacity to kill. Everyone. not everyone acts on it.

[Steven]

This is just the sort of thing that can never be about money- that way lies madness.

In my opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

its a part of my reality my friend.

I dont have any sort of materialistic bent. I live very simply. I dont buy toys, I dont go partying, I dont keep up with the Jone's.

I am also the sole source of income in my home, and I want it that way.

But that's nearly impossible to acheive, and I'm workign my job plus my own business to try to keep it that way. It makes me tired, responsibility does.

Add to that my mortgage, taxes up the wazoo, insurance for our cars (a little gutless Kia and my used pickup) Health insurance for both of us, heating energy, cooling energy, water bills, food, electricity, some socks, 2 tubes of toothpaste, etc. etc. etc......and you have the realities of my world that require money.

I'm a grown up.

Not indicating that you all are not - but grown ups have grown up bills. There can be (can be) a huge difference between the finainical responsibilities fo a 20 somethign versus a soon to be forty year old.

so yes, money counts. I'd like to heat my house this winter.

[Steven]

I just want to respond to something that Brassfusion said about being born....

Everyone is born with the capacity to kill. Everyone. not everyone acts on it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

perfectly said Mark.

and I agree.

[phee]

I just want to respond to something that Brassfusion said about being born....

Everyone is born with the capacity to kill. Everyone. not everyone acts on it.

Can you show me the quote? I want to respond

[The_Dark]

Bob probably doesn't understand things like right and wrong or human pain as deeply as people who don't think they're 7 foot tall talking penises. Penii?

Hell, I don't even have a full grasp on right and wrong. I think they're pretty subjective. I have human empathy, though.

Some people are sociopaths- they will never feel empathy from hurting another person. Perhaps many of them think they are the only human being in the world surrounded by robots that exist only in their mind. A great deal of people act like that, and aren't classically "insane."

That level of sociopathy- that of a murderer or other violent criminal- I see as a disability of sorts. I wasn't born with the inclination to do that sort of thing, but they were, so it's harder for them to not be violent. I don't think they deserve to die for how they were born and raised.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[phee]

Thanks Dark....

And in response... I think there is a concpet called personal responsibility that this culture has made a secondary... someones past can explain a lot but not justify there actions.... My GF has been abused psychologically, physically, and emotionally almost her whole life... and she is the strongest, most understanding person I have ever met... On the other hand I have seen people with a firm and supportive past turn out to be total evil jerks... the differnence.... personal responsability for actions

I don't care if I was beaten and raped.... If I kill someone I deserve the same treatment as someone who was not...

Mental disorders possibly but VERY RARELY alivieate someones guilt

[Msterbeau]

A few things...

Mark... even though you may be right about everyone being born with the CAPACITY to kill, (If you can pick up a knife or a gun, you have the capacity) I think some people are far more susepitible to acting on that urge, and I'd point to genetics as a good place to start understanding why.

Phee.. I've said this before: My therapist (Who is both smart and perceptive in my biased opinion) noted that people generally follow two paths of growth with respect to personality/mental status. They either follow in the footsteps of their caregivers/parents, or they go 180 degrees the opposite way. Melissa is a great example of the later. I've seen others and it's quite amazing how resilient some people are.

Last. While I might have a lot of empathy for a person who had an abusive childhood, in the end, I agree with phee... they have to take responsibility for what they do or society falls apart from people justifying all kinds of unhealthy/dangerous behavior.

[BrassFusion]

I'm not saying that the sociopaths who kill people should get a slap on the wrist, but they shouldn't die.

And Steven- as for your fiscal problems, that's why more money should come from the upper class and LESS money should be wasted on the military. All that is still assuming that it's more expensive to keep a convict alive, which is still up in the air. We've all seen conflicting sources on that.

[phee]

I'm not saying that the sociopaths who kill people should get a slap on the wrist, but they shouldn't die.

And Steven- as for your fiscal problems, that's why more money should come from the upper class and LESS money should be wasted on the military. All that is still assuming that it's more expensive to keep a convict alive, which is still up in the air. We've all seen conflicting sources on that.

I agree with both of these thoughts

[BrassFusion]

I agree with both of these thoughts

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can sleep tonight

[Msterbeau]

I can sleep tonight

No. I'm going to pour honey on you while you're asleep and let a jar of ants enjoy the feast....

:fear :laughing :fear

[The_Dark]

The Capacity to kill.. I mean mentally. We all have to basic instincts and urges... but as phee stated... some of us understand consequences and take responsibility for our actions... some... no, most of us do. Some few can kill without a second thought.

As for the military... I would love to live in a world where it wasn't a neccesity to have a military force. Beyound that... do you know just how much of the things you use every day originally had a military purpose? A good example... most of the solid fuel rockets used to put things into space... were designed to carry some warhead or another.... the jet engine was designed for fighter craft.

[Msterbeau]

As for the military... I would love to live in a world where it wasn't a neccesity to have a military force. Beyound that... do you know just how much of the things you use every day originally had a military purpose? A good example... most of the solid fuel rockets used to put things into space... were designed to carry some warhead or another.... the jet engine was designed for fighter craft.

I'm pretty sure most of us would be OK with a delay in technological progress if war and militaries were somehow made unnecessary. Not to mention the fact that miltary stuff tends to cost a lot more then civilian stuff. Reliablity/robustness carries an additional cost that militaries can ill-afford to do without.

But we're getting WAY off topic here so I'll stop....

[The_Dark]

I wont. Honestly... We would still be hunter/gatherers if not for war.

[phee]

I wont. Honestly... We would still be hunter/gatherers if not for war.

This is true

[Blackmail]

I'm pretty sure most of us would be OK with a delay in technological progress if war and militaries were somehow made unnecessary.  Not to mention the fact that miltary stuff tends to cost a lot more then civilian stuff.  Reliablity/robustness carries an additional cost that militaries can ill-afford to do without. 

But we're getting WAY off topic here so I'll stop....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it is way off topic but a great post and would make for an interesting thread of it's own.

[BrassFusion]

I wont. Honestly... We would still be hunter/gatherers if not for war.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, we'd still be hunter/gatherers if not for agriculture. War is a large-scale natural selection, whereby the fittest nations consume the lesser ones to stay alive. Humanity has made genetic natural selection obsolete. Why can't we do the same with war?

[phee]

No, we'd still be hunter/gatherers if not for agriculture. War is a large-scale natural selection, whereby the fittest nations consume the lesser ones to stay alive. Humanity has made genetic natural selection obsolete. Why can't we do the same with war?

Have to disagree with you hear.... mass agriculture starts because of governments and such.... governments form (more or less) because of war.... (way over simplified)

[Steven]

While I might have a lot of empathy for a person who had an abusive childhood, in the end, I agree with phee... they have to take responsibility for what they do or society falls apart from people justifying all kinds of unhealthy/dangerous behavior.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this is me. Yet I have no excuses.

and your right - I have my own personal responsibility to face, which is why I hate euphamistic action titles like "codependency". ANd your right again, society suffers when we do not own our own programming.

now, that being said, my childhood and teen years have everything to do with my current points of view on the death penalty, predator personalities, and the finality of my position. But I dont offer this as an excuse either. I simply beleive that I know first hand what I'm talking about and draw from those experiences, which carry much greater impact with me than reviews of certain social studies made by experts. There are others who have had similar hardships who completely disagree with me. that's their perogative. I don't however, feel obligated to align myself with their point of view, nor do I expect them to align themselves with mine. This is the reality of (not only) hardship - it creates what it does and we deal with the rest as time moves on.

I am however, because of my past, feircly and unapologetically protective of my inner circle and those I love. I also have a degree of "rage" if you will, that I have worked on for many years, that has no place in society, save perhaps for those moments of fight or flight. It does not haunt me, nor does it cause problems for anyone else. But at times I admit that I have been thankful to have had that to draw upon. Empathy I do not seek, personal responsibility I accept, and respect I try to offer. But I am the kind of man that I am.

[Steven]

I'm not saying that the sociopaths who kill people should get a slap on the wrist, but they shouldn't die.

And Steven- as for your fiscal problems, that's why more money should come from the upper class and LESS money should be wasted on the military. All that is still assuming that it's more expensive to keep a convict alive, which is still up in the air. We've all seen conflicting sources on that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you forget that I've seen them up close and had dinner with them.

therefore I beleive I've seen much money wasted on those who will never be rehabilitated.

As for the military thing (I'm ex military) and upper class downflow of monies....that's a whole other Oprah. I do find it interesting however that none so far (of the anti death penalty position) have stated that they'd grant me my wish to get off the prison pay stipend and volunteer their own cash flow in my place.

[Steven]

I agree with both of these thoughts

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and I see value in that, truly.

however I just dont beleive either problem will be worked out. to me it all reeks of well intentioned rhetoric...

[BrassFusion]

I do find it interesting however that none so far (of the anti death penalty position) have stated that they'd grant me my wish to get off the prison pay stipend and volunteer their own cash flow in my place.

That's the part that assumes it's cheaper to execute convicts.

you forget that I've seen them up close and had dinner with them.

therefore I beleive I've seen much money wasted on those who will never be rehabilitated.

This is the part that assumes there is no value to human life once it has taken another for no reason.

On the second part, we'll have to agree to disagree. We simply have different values. As for the money end of it, we need to find some good data. Goddamnit, someone go do some homework, I'm gonna have a mimosa.