The death Penelty

[The_Dark]

DGN is being odd today.

[phee]

DGN is being odd today.

Yeah more than just the people

[Blackmail]

...

[phee]

I guess my thing here is...

I have heard that innocents are killed (rarely) by the fact that the system is imperfect... and that is something that people who support the death penalty can live with...

My question is... if we didn't have the death penalty, then the government wouldn't have to kill ANY innoncents... so that is where the question is, why kill any innocents at all if we can possibly help it...?

IF it is more expensive to keep criminals alive... I am willing to to eat that cost if it means saving an innocents life... And I think the families of the (few perhaps) innocents that have been killed by the government might be willing to eat the cost if it meant that there loved ones would still be alive.

I guess I am less anxious to kill people who are guilty, as I am to keep innocent people alive... and OMG I might have to speand more money to do that? How much does an innocent life cost exactly? Is one innocent person dying X amont of dollars? or is it like 25 guilty people being dead make it worth 1 innocent person being murdered by the government?

[The_Dark]

I can see your point. I don't share it, but I respect it.

[phee]

I can see your point. I don't share it, but I respect it.

Thankyou sir... I appreciate you saying so

[BrassFusion]

I think it's both hilarious and pathetic that Phee had to say almost exactly what I did earlier in this thread for it to have any meaning to anyone.

OMG your funny.

"You're."

First you insult me and say I need to think... and then admit to not being smart enough to see the difference between "reasonable doubt" and "beyond a shadow of a doubt"

That's because there is no quantitative difference. They're both figures of speech. You're just too anal to accept that I rephrased it. Maybe I'm too stupid to understand your motives here, but... I think it's more likely that you're just picking a fight.

it matters because we are discussing the death penalty. You first need to understand how the judicial system works to really talk about it.

Then EXPLAIN to me how the judicial system works. But first, reread all the posts to make sure I haven't already made it clear that I'm not a dumbass and I do have a shred of an idea of what's going on.

[Msterbeau]

Apparently, things are a little more straightforward in China:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-06...death-van_x.htm

[sinmantyx]

I put in my two cents in another thread:

I've always strongly opposed the death penalty for three reasons:

1) You will NEVER have a perfect justice system and the death sentence has been used as state sanctioned lynching in the past (and present). If they are not-guilty at the very least there is a chance of release.

2) If someone commits a crime so horrible that the public cannot comprehend it, that person would do better spending his or her life in a mental institution and being studied by mental health professionals for new insights into human behavior that may be of benefit to everyone. At least some good can come of it. (Where do you think Manson is right now?)

3) The death penalty is not a deterant. In fact according to Freakanomics, it actually increases the number of murders in states where it is enacted. This is most likely due to the "learn by example" mechanism, where the state sets the example that killing someone is a reasonable answer to a problem.

I'm not a "bleeding heart" I'm a pragmatist. I have never heard any argument for the death penalty that wasn't flawed in a practical way. Most arguments I hear are fueled by emotion and anger.

If you are really interested in this topic, follow the story of Gov. George Ryan of Illinois giving blanket clemency to 156 inmates on death row (meaning they would not be killed, but would still stay in prison). The events started when a few death row inmates were exonerated due to a SCHOOL PROJECT at a university.

[phee]

I put in my two cents in another thread:

I've always strongly opposed the death penalty for three reasons:

1) You will NEVER have a perfect justice system and the death sentence has been used as state sanctioned lynching in the past (and present). If they are not-guilty at the very least there is a chance of release.

2) If someone commits a crime so horrible that the public cannot comprehend it, that person would do better spending his or her life in a mental institution and being studied by mental health professionals for new insights into human behavior that may be of benefit to everyone. At least some good can come of it. (Where do you think Manson is right now?)

3) The death penalty is not a deterant. In fact according to Freakanomics, it actually increases the number of murders in states where it is enacted. This is most likely due to the "learn by example" mechanism, where the state sets the example that killing someone is a reasonable answer to a problem.

I'm not a "bleeding heart" I'm a pragmatist. I have never heard any argument for the death penalty that wasn't flawed in a practical way. Most arguments I hear are fueled by emotion and anger.

If you are really interested in this topic, follow the story of Gov. George Ryan of Illinois giving blanket clemency to 156 inmates on death row (meaning they would not be killed, but would still stay in prison). The events started when a few death row inmates were exonerated due to a SCHOOL PROJECT at a university.

That is very well stated... and I agree with most of the sentiments involved

[sinmantyx]

This is a topical case:

Yates Trial

I really do wish that state mental institutions quit being shut-down so that the already over-burdened prison system doesn't keep housing the mentally ill in this country. (...but that's another story.)

I know one argument for the death penalty is the rate of re-offense for certain crimes (especially sexual crime). One neat thing about being committed to a mental institution is that, if you are most likely a threat to yourself or others, they don't have to let you go. It's not like a jail sentence where, reguardless of the apparent possibility of re-offense they have to let you go when the sentence is up.

While I'm at it here's some fun information about efficient use of money in the "war on drugs".

[sinmantyx]

And your prison overcrowding (not) argument is exactly what I'm talking about.

Statistical bullshit.

Make no mistake about it - every prison is a timebomb.

And just like the military, much of what goes down - never sees print, despite what you think you know. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When dealing with very local and individual issues, stats are generally (as you said) bullshit. They don't apply and shouldn't apply. However, when making policy decisions, they mean everything (when gathered and interpretted properly).

I get pretty jaded about good solid studies being ignored by policy makers while they embrace "feel good" "gut reaction" "solutions" that their voting block can latch onto and understand, extremely complex issues reduced to talking points that grab the voters interest, and shocking anecdotes put on display to cover the real scope of an issue.

We're paying money to feed a not-nice-person = that money could have been used by me

is a lot easier to swallow than

we're paying money to feed a not-nice-person as well as treatment and health care = cost effective use of tax dollars

is harder to wrap your brain around.

It just is.

[Anathema]

ok. and this comes from PERSONAL experiance. you kill someone on purpose you need to die. sorry, i stand firm on this. my blind cousin was stabbed to death (over 50 times) by this jackass who was tring to steal her tv (yes, she listened to it, not watched it). he got jail with no way to get out. he'd been in jail about 12 times before for drugs and domestic violence as well as robbery.

[BrassFusion]

ok.  and this comes from PERSONAL experiance.  you kill someone on purpose you need to die.  sorry, i stand firm on this.  my blind cousin was stabbed to death (over 50 times) by this jackass who was tring to steal her tv (yes, she listened to it, not watched it).  he got jail with no way to get out.  he'd been in jail about 12 times before for drugs and domestic violence as well as robbery.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds like he's insane to me.

[sinmantyx]

ok.  and this comes from PERSONAL experiance.  you kill someone on purpose you need to die.  sorry, i stand firm on this.  my blind cousin was stabbed to death (over 50 times) by this jackass who was tring to steal her tv (yes, she listened to it, not watched it).  he got jail with no way to get out.  he'd been in jail about 12 times before for drugs and domestic violence as well as robbery.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a really horrible thing to have happened. However, I don't see how the death penalty would have helped prevent it in any way.

I can't speak to what it is like to have a relative or loved one be a victim in a violent crime that could carry a death penalty. I only know what it's like to know that someone did a horrible thing but would never be given any justice because of the nature of the crime.

I do know that some loved ones call for the death penalty and others do not. Some are still very opposed to the death penalty even when a loved one has been a victim of a crime.

[Anathema]

That's a really horrible thing to have happened.  However, I don't see how the death penalty would have helped prevent it in any way.

I can't speak to what it is like to have a relative or loved one be a victim in a violent crime that could carry a death penalty.  I only know what it's like to know that someone did a horrible thing but would never be given any justice because of the nature of the crime.

I do know that some loved ones call for the death penalty and others do not.  Some are still very opposed to the death penalty even when a loved one has been a victim of a crime.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

countries that have strict laws on murder with a death pen have far less murders and crime. the u.s. has more crime and violence then any other non-third world country in the world. If he'd have known that if he murdered someone he'd be put to death for the crime there is a chance it may not have happened. That and if he had not been let out of jail to begin with and/or monitored a little bit better it may not have happened either. We are far to easy on criminals in this country.

[Scary Guy]

countries that have strict laws on murder with a death pen have far less murders and crime.  the u.s. has more crime and violence then any other non-third world country in the world.  If he'd have known that if he murdered someone he'd be put to death for the crime there is a chance it may not have  happened.  That and if he had not been let out of jail to begin with and/or monitored a little bit better it may not have happened either.  We are far to easy on criminals in this country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Also countries where people get their hands chopped off have far less theft too. I'm all for that too.

"If three people saw you do what you did, there's no waiting it's strait to the electric chair. Other states are trying to stop the death penalty, my state is putting in an express lane." - Ron White

[phee]

It's a good thing that three people can't lie about another, so that no mistakes can be made

[BrassFusion]

There's something to be said for, "let the punishment fit the crime," and having a hand chopped off for petty theft isn't very fitting.

The reason that maxim exists is because when you start justifying extreme punishment for petty crimes because of the deterrant factor, it can become a slippery slope. Especially dangerous in the category of laws that need revision. Say... Click it or Ticket. How would you like to get your ear cut off for THAT particular unconstitutional offense?

[Hellion]

:devil I saw a documentary on a child molester who victimized a 12 year old kid from his class,well after the proof was found 100% true.He met his maker,they were leading the P.O.S. through a hallway in the courthouse,and this one guy who was talking on the phone turned around and blasted this assholes head clean off.It happened to be the father of the kid.The molester never even made it to prison.Now that is justice.IMO.It was shown on a segment of "Faces of Death"

This happened about 23 years ago.If it was my kid I probably would have done the same.These kinds of scum in society don't deserve 3 meals a day and a place to sleep on my tax dollars.IMO

[sinmantyx]

Until we start putting cameras all over the country --- In a real practically sense, there is no such thing as "knowing 100%". I wish people would stop throwing that around. It's a naive idea at best.

You either think that having the death penalty is worth the price of a few innocent people's lives or you don't. Innocent people will be put to death. You either make peace with that or you don't. And please, do not make up bullshit numbers like...well, that's horribly improbable, because the innocence project has already proven you wrong....you know, with EVIDENCE and not some feel-good gut reaction.

Many death penalty laws were struck down for a while due to the Supreme Court at the time understanding that being put to death in the U.S. for a crime was about as reliable and fair as being struck by lightening and acknowledged the cases of state sanctioned lynchings that were being perpatrated by racist communities under the guise of just punishment. link

Please don't fabricate the "evidence" that the death penalty is a deterent. Because when you compare apples to apples, within the general US population it has not proven to be, in fact some studies support the OPPOSITE effect.

When you compare crime statistics of the United States with other countries and do not take into account other aspects such as culture, governmental system, economy, etc, the comparison is confounded by these factors. If you try to find countries that are somewhat culturally and economically similiar to the United States (such as the countries of Europe, who are part of "Western Civilization"), you will find that countries with MUCH more "lax" treatment of convicted murders and rapists SOMEHOW manage to have MUCH less murder and rape.

Am I the only one that thinks it's interesting that the two crimes (murder and rape) that some states are willing to kill over are the only two crimes that are MUCH more prevailant in the United States than other industrialized Western democracies? I'm not saying there is some direct and irrefutable link (as if the death penalty automatically increases rape and murder rates substantially), only that there is something different about the U.S. and these other countries that accounts for the relatively high rates of rape and murder in the U.S.

One obvious culprit is our brand of freedom of speech. Study after study links violent media to increased aggressiveness. Yet the whole "V" chip thing (which was simply a mandated tool for decreasing exposure to violent media, that didn't censor a damn thing) is controversial? A few people here have actually expressed that they would commit murder under certain circumstances; all the while upset that a murder gets housed and fed instead of hauled out and shot in the back of the head. Doesn't that strike any of you as terrible?

I think freedom of speech is important enough to preserve, even if protecting it effectively increases agressiveness and possibly increases violent crime. However, I'm not going to close my eyes and spout a bunch of unsubstatiated rhetoric that those links do not exists because real studies and real evidence strongly suggest that they do.

It's simple violence begetting violence.

You tell me, do you think Tookie was a threat to anyone sitting in prison and working AGAINST gang violence? The state put him to death. Why? Justice? Revenge? --- or did it just make a few angry people feel good to kill a man while most of the country is too desensitized to give a shit?

I know I'm not big on emotional stories in debate, but I happened across an interesting case of vigilantism on a TV talk show a while back. A man had touched a young girl in an inappropriate way. He went to jail. He was repentant and received help. There was no evidence of habitual offense or any indication of probable reoffense. I'm not saying he's a great guy, just that he was an individual. He was released. Three of the girl's relatives found him and raped him (in ways I'm not going to repeat). All three of them went to jail. Do you REALLY think they had the young girl's best interest at heart? Do you think this somehow HELPED her deal with the situation? Is anyone here frankly SICK enough to think this is justified and that the "punishment fit the crime"?

[sinmantyx]

the u.s. has more crime and violence then any other non-third world country in the world.  If he'd have known that if he murdered someone he'd be put to death for the crime there is a chance it may not have  happened.  That and if he had not been let out of jail to begin with and/or monitored a little bit better it may not have happened either.  We are far to easy on criminals in this country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The first claim is arguably not true. I found this link from 2001. I did a bit of quick searching, and most sources mentioned that the U.S. is by far highest in murder and rape, but not so in crime generally. However, even when crime is guaged by surveys (not just including reports to the police) these stats (I can imagine) could be colored by the attitude of the person being surveyed.

I simply can't speak to the other claims. You might be right in this particular case. I don't know. I'm no psychologist and I don't know the case well enough to make any judgements even if I were. I could conjecture that the man's brain wouldn't even be able to make a connection between action and consequences of any kind; but I can't say.

However, even if we make the assumption that it would be a deterent to this individual, the evidence at hand suggests that it is not a deterent to the general population. I do not believe that making reactionary policy decisions based on an individual case is good practice.

Then again, he may have sufferred from a severe deficiency in Omega-3 fatty acids due to a poor diet causing severe manic-depression. He may have self-medicated with illegal drugs mainly due to lack of access to health services, making the problem much worse and contributing to severe economic harship and dependence. He began to steal to finance his drug habit, and one day killed in one of his many manic rages. ...and all that was needed to prevent this was for him to eat more fish. Please, don't think I am being flippant. I'm not. I'm saying that increasing the health and welfare of this country is most likely a much better preventative to crime than killing violent criminals. It may not feel fair or reasonable to try to "understand" people so horrible and callous, who have personally caused us such pain and loss. However, the only way to truely solve problems is to get to their root causes.

It's also possible that he was born a sociopath with no conscience (a predator as someone said) and that the world would have been better off if someone shot him in his crib. I'm not denying that possibility one bit. In that case, I would hope that we try to understand his psychology and motivations, so that we can better identify such a person and make better decisions concerning people like him.

[sinmantyx]

It's a good thing that three people can't lie about another, so that no mistakes can be made

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not always lying, many people who misindentify very much believe they are telling the truth. Memories are much more malleable than most of us would like to think. We are also prone to suggestion. I guess simply not telling the person directing the line-up identification who the suspect is greatly reduces eye-witness misidentification; implying that subtle non-verbal hints are enough to lead witnesses to identify that person, even if it is the wrong person.

My favorite is the "confession" garnered after hours and hours of interrogation. Borderline torture works really great! If you just want to get on tape what you want to hear. This is probably one of the more interesting cases. Just imagine, your sister just died and police badger you for 27 hours over 3 days to the point where you are convinced that you must of murdered your sister and not remembered it.

Thank goodness it isn't the rule, but that type of interrogation (but perhaps even worse) was involved in at least four pardons by Gov. Ryan of Illinois in 2003.

[Scary Guy]

There's something to be said for, "let the punishment fit the crime," and having a hand chopped off for petty theft isn't very fitting.

The reason that maxim exists is because when you start justifying extreme punishment for petty crimes because of the deterrant factor, it can become a slippery slope. Especially dangerous in the category of laws that need revision. Say... Click it or Ticket. How would you like to get your ear cut off for THAT particular unconstitutional offense?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll tell you one thing, EVERYONE would buckle up then.

[BrassFusion]

I'll tell you one thing, EVERYONE would buckle up then.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can name a few not-very-bright people who wouldn't. Just to fight the man.